what do you make of this flat call?

hamnegger · #1 10-05-2007, 09:12 PM

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t800 (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com

SB (t10090)
BB (t24914)
UTG (t7413)
UTG+1 (t18628)
MP1 (t18254)
MP2 (t8928)
Hero (t11079)
CO (t6953)
Button (t22298)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
4 folds, Hero raises to t2600, CO calls t2600, 3 folds.

Flop: (t5800) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero ? put him all in? i found it odd given his stack he only called.

markbris · #2 10-05-2007, 09:14 PM

Yea I would go ahead and put him in you have flush draw plus gutshot and maybe an over. I dont think it really matters what he could have.

r987r · #3 10-05-2007, 09:20 PM

push preflop, id push any flop with CO's stack

loosemmjan · #4 10-05-2007, 09:32 PM

Push preflop, your hand doesn't want a call...

Someone wakes up with a hand oh well your M<10....

cheburashka · #5 10-05-2007, 10:47 PM

I think that Bond's post on stack sizes is very relevant here: If I'm not mistaken, antes at 800 are 75, which makes the "true BB" 1200, not 800, meaning that your own stack is already in shoving territory.

Also, Bond makes the point that you don't want to raise a hand that you don't want 3-bet with your stack. I presume you from your wording that you were you planning to call a shove from CO or SB. But what about a raise from BB?

As played, the flat call to me indicates that he's an idiot--either he's taking a weird line with a monster, or he's prepared to fold unless he hit the flop. Either way, I'd shove with minimum 12 outs.

Sherman · #6 10-05-2007, 10:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Push preflop, your hand doesn't want a call...

[/ QUOTE ]

So I should push PF with every hand that doesn't want a call? Good strategy. I guess I'll be open-shoving with 90% of hands from now on.

Dunkman · #7 10-05-2007, 11:33 PM

If he flipped over KK you'd still call a push from him, so there's 0 reason to not just push yourself. The question of pushing PF is a relevant one, however, and I agree that this is a push (or fold, but not a regular raise.) Raising over 20% of your stack then folding to a reraise is really not good, so if you're calling a reraise, why not just shove yourself and probably fold out some hands that are ahead of you which may reraise with FE but won't call a shove (some mid pps, AJ perhaps, etc.)

loosemmjan · #8 10-05-2007, 11:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Push preflop, your hand doesn't want a call...

[/ QUOTE ]

So I should push PF with every hand that doesn't want a call? Good strategy. I guess I'll be open-shoving with 90% of hands from now on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't be glib.

You know raise fold is horrible line with hero's
stack. You also know, that in tournaments there is not a lot of time to play the poker metagame we all dream about.

So, If hero decides to play this hand. The best line with his stack size is push > raise/fold.

I would fold it preflop. I think with heros stack he still has time to find a better hand to PUSH.

~loose

Sherman · #9 10-05-2007, 11:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If he flipped over KK you'd still call a push from him, so there's 0 reason to not just push yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh...there is more than one guy behind him in the hand. I am assuming that is why he didn't just open-shove. If only the villain were to act behind him, this would be an easy open shove. With however many BBs OP has, I think raising with the intention of calling a shove from shorty and folding to the rest is fine...for a typical micro-stakes donkament.

Sherman

Sherman · #10 10-05-2007, 11:45 PM

Ok, just to be clear. This is how I play this hand readless:

I would make my normal raise at this level which is t2100.

I would insta-call if the short stack shoved and it folded to me.

I would fold if either of the other stacks shoved.

IMO, OP raised too much PF. By raising to t2600 he has become closer to committing himself PF if one of the big stacks decides to shove. Which is why I prefer raising less than Ham did, to something like 2100.

Sherman