Bet Folding

[Frond]

Wanted to see if some of you can speak about some specific situations where bet folding came into play in LHE. I posted a hand a few weeks ago where I had bet folded and at first I hated that I had but a few of you pointed out that it is a great weapon to have in ones LHE arsenal. So what player types & specific hands that you like to do this with that immediately come to mind? I know that Kit probably can chime in here with several.

[kbdunn]

Here are my initial thoughts, probably with a good amount of errors:

Bet/fold line is great against certain opponents with which you have a good read, ideally against a passive non-tricky opponent.

The line garners a lot more value than the c/c line on certain boards/villains, because you will gain value from calls of hands you beat when not raised, where as c/c against certain opponents/boards you will only be calling when a better hand is betting, therefore always making a losing call (this is unless your opponent will bluff with his worse hands, then c/c gains more value). Remember all the hands where you checked OOP and it was checked through and your HIG, missing a value bet.

Examples such as when the flush card hits and your opponent is one to not bluff you without the goods. Its heads up and you bet into your villain, the flush card looks as scary to you as him, against a passive villain and small pot, you can probably bet/fold this.

Different boards and how many other players are in the hand are big variables, the more passive the opponent and more villains (bluffing into a field is less profitable than heads up), the more inclined you should be bet/folding. Trickier opponents who will raise with combo draws and fire a barrel UI on the river etc. will need to be bet/called or c/c to obtain the most value.

Also be aware of your own relative hand strength compared to your range of villain's hand and the board. Bet/folding two pair is sometimes correct, and sometimes incorrect. Its a lot easier to bet/fold a pair than stronger hands such top two or a set.

During the session also keep in mind some villains may be seeing you bet/fold and will then take shots. So make sure to change gears and look some people up if they are paying attention.

It kinda boils down to how your villains will bet their hands, if they are frequently raising worse hands, bet/call on certain boards, if they are frequently only raising better hands on the same boards bet/fold, if they are rarely calling worse hands, but will bet when checked to, c/c.

[DeuceKicker]

[ QUOTE ]
Here are my initial thoughts, probably with a good amount of errors:

Bet/fold line is great against certain opponents with which you have a good read, ideally against a passive non-tricky opponent.

The line garners a lot more value than the c/c line on certain boards/villains, because you will gain value from calls of hands you beat when not raised, where as c/c against certain opponents/boards you will only be calling when a better hand is betting, therefore always making a losing call (this is unless your opponent will bluff with his worse hands, then c/c gains more value). Remember all the hands where you checked OOP and it was checked through and your HIG, missing a value bet.

Examples such as when the flush card hits and your opponent is one to not bluff you without the goods. Its heads up and you bet into your villain, the flush card looks as scary to you as him, against a passive villain and small pot, you can probably bet/fold this.

Different boards and how many other players are in the hand are big variables, the more passive the opponent and more villains (bluffing into a field is less profitable than heads up), the more inclined you should be bet/folding. Trickier opponents who will raise with combo draws and fire a barrel UI on the river etc. will need to be bet/called or c/c to obtain the most value.

Also be aware of your own relative hand strength compared to your range of villain's hand and the board. Bet/folding two pair is sometimes correct, and sometimes incorrect. Its a lot easier to bet/fold a pair than stronger hands such top two or a set.

During the session also keep in mind some villains may be seeing you bet/fold and will then take shots. So make sure to change gears and look some people up if they are paying attention.

It kinda boils down to how your villains will bet their hands, if they are frequently raising worse hands, bet/call on certain boards, if they are frequently only raising better hands on the same boards bet/fold, if they are rarely calling worse hands, but will bet when checked to, c/c.

[/ QUOTE ]Some good points in here.

[Frond]

A few hands from last nights session got me thinking about employing this line. This happened right after I bet and called the raise instead of folding which I should have. One especially was a really stupid call I made from an older guy who never raised without a big hand, pre or post flop. Scarmiglio can attest to that bonehead play I made but it got the wheels turning instantly cause I knew the mistake I made and was a good spot to BF. Made sense to me also that someone eluded to here somewhere, that with some decent hands that we might be planning to call a bet it at times does make sense to BF. Mixing it up is good though as we are going to have to look a few up so we are not seen as always folding for one on the river.

Some really good replies in here that I am going to think about some more.

Ni Hans all [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[One Outer]

I remember the thread you're talking about. I thought that was a really important idea that I wasn't utilizing enough. I've been trying to incorporate the bet/fold into my play more the past several weeks and my results have been excellent. Just anecdotally I can see that I'm getting that extra bet in spots where I normally would have just checked it through. I'm sure Kit will pop in here at some point and give us all a great cliff's notes version of when to bet/fold, but until then here is my .02.

I have been using the bet/fold primarily against loose passive players, especially when I'm OOP. I had a great example today. I held QQ in early position. I raised and got two callers, one the BB, who is pretty solid but passive, and one an LP calling station in the CO. The flop came J96, with two hearts, and my QQ is black. BB checks, I bet, CO calls, BB folds. Turn is a 6, bet call. River is the 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I bet, he calls shows me JTo and I start stacking chips.

Now in the past, even in position, I would check/called the 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] on the river there. I'm just plain scared of it. I end up spending the same bet when he gets there and I end up missing a bet when he has a hand that I beat but won't bet on the end.

This may just be my experience but I'm also finding that it gets me loose river action I never would have gotten before. I think it's screwing with the thinking of some of the better players in my game. They are used to seeing the dangerous river and turn cards checked through, and when you bet them, they tend to think you're bluffing. I can almost see the gears turning in their heads:

"Why is he betting that spade? Isn't he afraid he'll get raised? He must not have a hand and think that the only way he can win is to bet. I'm going to make a superstar call with third pair and a busted straight draw."

I cannot believe the calls I have gotten out of some regulars in the past few weeks.

[Dhani]

[ QUOTE ]
I have been using the bet/fold primarily against loose passive players, especially when I'm OOP. I had a great example today. I held QQ in early position. I raised and got two callers, one the BB, who is pretty solid but passive, and one an LP calling station in the CO. The flop came J96, with two hearts, and my QQ is black. BB checks, I bet, CO calls, BB folds. Turn is a 6, bet call. River is the 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I bet, he calls shows me JTo and I start stacking chips.

Now in the past, even in position, I would check/called the 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] on the river there. I'm just plain scared of it. I end up spending the same bet when he gets there and I end up missing a bet when he has a hand that I beat but won't bet on the end.

You mention above that you have been incorporating the bet/fold more as illustrated in this situation.
1) You would then lean torwards folding if villain raises with position in this situation.
2) What if villain is OOP and check raises you?
3)What if villain calls the turn bet?
a)Do you BET/FOLD the river against a raise?


This may just be my experience but I'm also finding that it gets me loose river action I never would have gotten before. I think it's screwing with the thinking of some of the better players in my game. They are used to seeing the dangerous river and turn cards checked through, and when you bet them, they tend to think you're bluffing. I can almost see the gears turning in their heads:

"Why is he betting that spade? Isn't he afraid he'll get raised? He must not have a hand and think that the only way he can win is to bet. I'm going to make a superstar call with third pair and a busted straight draw."

I cannot believe the calls I have gotten out of some regulars in the past few weeks.

[/ QUOTE ]

[One Outer]

Of course I fold to a raise in this situation. The passive players in the game this example comes from are so passive they wouldn't even raise a rivered two pair in this spot, so if he is raising, I'm screwed.

The c/r is completely read dependent. In this hand, against this opponent, I'm folding.

[ QUOTE ]
What if villain calls the turn bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? You mean if the flush card comes out on the turn and he then calls my bet? If that is what you mean, then I bet the river again anyway, even if it brings the fourth flush card (Clarkmeister Theorem). If no more of that suit comes out he'll still pay me, and if he does raise me, well I suppose once again that's situational. Is the river a complete blank? I'm more inclined to call if it is, but if the card is in his two pair wheelhouse I'm more inclined to fold. It's hard to say until the situation happens.

[ QUOTE ]
Do you bet fold the river against a raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

What? I don't get it. Perhaps you mean, if he raised the turn and I call, do I donk into him again and then fold if he raises?

[Dhani]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you bet fold the river against a raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

What? I don't get it. Perhaps you mean, if he raised the turn and I call, do I donk into him again and then fold if he raises?

[/ QUOTE ]
The turn is a flush card. You bet the turn and he calls. The river blanks and..
a)you lead again and he raises.

[One Outer]

My default play would then be call. It's just too weird a line for his story to make sense, as Kit might say.

[KitCloudkicker]

Rob, a place i will b/f HU on the river:

I bet every street on with AK on an ace high board and a relatively passive player raises me when the 3 card flush hits.