Professional No-Limit Hold 'em Study Group Day 1

[Sean Fraley]

[ QUOTE ]
Ho my... I have been searching an answer to this specific question for a long time! So we'll take this straight draw on the flop example again.
Let say I'm being offered 3 to 1 (half sized-pot bet, 50 in a pot of 100) on the flop, so if I hit on the turn, I must do at least 100 more to get even on my draw, right?
If I miss my straight draw, and the villain bets half the pot again, (75 in 150 this time) giving me 3 to 1 in my pot odds again, if I decide to call, how much more will have to gain to get even with my 2 calls?
It is 100 for the first call then 150 for the second call for a total of 250 more or am I totally wrong here ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Once you call a bet or bet and have that amount called, the money is no longer yours but is simply part of the pot you are trying to win. Because of this, the only call that you "have to get even with" is the one call you are making on the turn and the flop call doesn't matter any more. You need to make about $132 on the river to break even with the 4.75:1 odds to hit your straight.

[SSJ2Bouchard]

SO in my example, if I had 1000$ before calling on the flop, 950$ after calling on flop, missed on the turn, then 875$ after calling on the turn, right?
So If I make exactly 132$ on the river, I will be up to 1007$. It seems to me that this is not a big profit overall after calling twice with odds of 4.75:1 each time [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
Anyone can help me understand this concept please [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[Sean Fraley]

[ QUOTE ]
SO in my example, if I had 1000$ before calling on the flop, 950$ after calling on flop, missed on the turn, then 875$ after calling on the turn, right?
So If I make exactly 132$ on the river, I will be up to 1007$. It seems to me that this is not a big profit overall after calling twice with odds of 4.75:1 each time [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
Anyone can help me understand this concept please [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

OK.

Preflop: You are on the button w/ 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in a $1/$2 game with a $200 stack. UTG has $200 also and raises to $8, you call the raise.

Flop: The pot is $16.50 and the flop comes A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. UTG bets $8.25 to make the pot $24.75 giving you 3:1 pot odds for your call and leaving $183.75 behind. You feel that it is very likely he holds an ace and is the type of player who can't let go of TPGK on all but the most blatantly threatening of boards. This means that you have very little fold equity, but great implied odds (especially if the eight falls). Calling $8.25 into a $24.75 pot with a draw that is 4.88:1 to hit on the turn we need to make $15.50 on either the turn or river to break even. You call and the pot is now $33.

Turn: The pot is $33 and the turn comes K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. UTG bets $16.50 leaving $167.25 behind. Here is where your question is answered: UTG's bet of $16.50 put enough money into the pot to make our call on the flop profitable. Now we no longer care about what size the pot was on the flop, we just care about the fact that the pot is now $49.50 and we are once again getting 3:1 to call. With 4.75:1 odds of making our flush on the river we need $28 to break even. You call.

River: The pot is $66 and the turn comes 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Villain bets $33 and you raise to $165. UTG folds. You made $5 dollars over what was necessary to break even on the turn call.

[Matt Flynn]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, I modify the question --- Can you explain if a 2:1 thumb-rule actually applies in ring games? In tourneys we have a 2:1 rule, where you can call a raise with marginal hands in specific situations.

[/ QUOTE ]


assuming your opponent doesn't spew, you need to steal fairly well to call such a raise profitably. otherwise you're like any big blind calling a 3bb raise then habitually check-folding the flop when he misses: easy pickings.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
SO in my example, if I had 1000$ before calling on the flop, 950$ after calling on flop, missed on the turn, then 875$ after calling on the turn, right?
So If I make exactly 132$ on the river, I will be up to 1007$. It seems to me that this is not a big profit overall after calling twice with odds of 4.75:1 each time [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
Anyone can help me understand this concept please [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

OK.

Preflop: You are on the button w/ 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in a $1/$2 game with a $200 stack. UTG has $200 also and raises to $8, you call the raise.

Flop: The pot is $16.50 and the flop comes A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. UTG bets $8.25 to make the pot $24.75 giving you 3:1 pot odds for your call and leaving $183.75 behind. You feel that it is very likely he holds an ace and is the type of player who can't let go of TPGK on all but the most blatantly threatening of boards. This means that you have very little fold equity, but great implied odds (especially if the eight falls). Calling $8.25 into a $24.75 pot with a draw that is 4.88:1 to hit on the turn we need to make $15.50 on either the turn or river to break even. You call and the pot is now $33.

Turn: The pot is $33 and the turn comes K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. UTG bets $16.50 leaving $167.25 behind. Here is where your question is answered: UTG's bet of $16.50 put enough money into the pot to make our call on the flop profitable. Now we no longer care about what size the pot was on the flop, we just care about the fact that the pot is now $49.50 and we are once again getting 3:1 to call. With 4.75:1 odds of making our flush on the river we need $28 to break even. You call.

River: The pot is $66 and the turn comes 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Villain bets $33 and you raise to $165. UTG folds. You made $5 dollars over what was necessary to break even on the turn call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sean:

I'm assuming you mean to talk about if a 9 comes, and meant to put a 9 on the river.

[SSJ2Bouchard]

Ooooh! I get now! Wow, I had never realize before that by betting again, the other player actually put more of the required money for us to get even [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
But would it make a difference if, let says, as in your example, he would bet less than the 15.50$ required to get even after the flop call ???

Do we have to add this amount (the negative difference between the amount required to get even and the amount he bet) to the amount required to get even or is it irrelevant ?
Like if he would bet $11 into the $33 turn pot instead of $16.50. (Although that would give us better pot odds which could balance it out in the end, am I right or wrong?)

Thanks for all your insights and help [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Sean Fraley]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
SO in my example, if I had 1000$ before calling on the flop, 950$ after calling on flop, missed on the turn, then 875$ after calling on the turn, right?
So If I make exactly 132$ on the river, I will be up to 1007$. It seems to me that this is not a big profit overall after calling twice with odds of 4.75:1 each time [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
Anyone can help me understand this concept please [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

OK.

Preflop: You are on the button w/ 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in a $1/$2 game with a $200 stack. UTG has $200 also and raises to $8, you call the raise.

Flop: The pot is $16.50 and the flop comes A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. UTG bets $8.25 to make the pot $24.75 giving you 3:1 pot odds for your call and leaving $183.75 behind. You feel that it is very likely he holds an ace and is the type of player who can't let go of TPGK on all but the most blatantly threatening of boards. This means that you have very little fold equity, but great implied odds (especially if the eight falls). Calling $8.25 into a $24.75 pot with a draw that is 4.88:1 to hit on the turn we need to make $15.50 on either the turn or river to break even. You call and the pot is now $33.

Turn: The pot is $33 and the turn comes K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. UTG bets $16.50 leaving $167.25 behind. Here is where your question is answered: UTG's bet of $16.50 put enough money into the pot to make our call on the flop profitable. Now we no longer care about what size the pot was on the flop, we just care about the fact that the pot is now $49.50 and we are once again getting 3:1 to call. With 4.75:1 odds of making our flush on the river we need $28 to break even. You call.

River: The pot is $66 and the turn comes 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Villain bets $33 and you raise to $165. UTG folds. You made $5 dollars over what was necessary to break even on the turn call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sean:

I'm assuming you mean to talk about if a 9 comes, and meant to put a 9 on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops. Yes, I meant 9.

[Sean Fraley]

[ QUOTE ]
Ooooh! I get now! Wow, I had never realize before that by betting again, the other player actually put more of the required money for us to get even [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
But would it make a difference if, let says, as in your example, he would bet less than the 15.50$ required to get even after the flop call ???

Do we have to add this amount (the negative difference between the amount required to get even and the amount he bet) to the amount required to get even or is it irrelevant ?
Like if he would bet $11 into the $33 turn pot instead of $16.50. (Although that would give us better pot odds which could balance it out in the end, am I right or wrong?)

Thanks for all your insights and help [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

In general a new street means a new situation. Did your draw come in? Then you need to be thinking about how to get enough money in the pot to make the previous call profitable. Did you miss your draw? Then what happened in previous streets doesn't matter since you don't have a hand that needs paid off anyway. You are instead thinking about whether or not you can keep drawing profitably or not.

To illustrate this a bit further, lets say that you assumed UTG would bet a blank turn but instead he checks. Now how much more do you need to make off of UTG to make the flop call profitable? If you check behind, the answer is none. The odds of hitting your straight with two cards to come are 2.18:1, and villain offered you 3:1 pot odds to call. Different street, different situation.

[BukNaked36]

On bet sizing - I'll throw out my old rule of thumb for criticism/admiration - take your pick

flop - 3/4 to full pot
turn - 2/3 to 3/4 pot
river - 1/2 to 2/3 pot

This is more a 50NL and below rule. Seems like proportions decrease slightly as you go up.

[SycG]

Can I ask how you figure out the implied odds for the turn and then the river?