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#51
02-15-2007, 05:25 PM
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Re: Time to write off public education?
[ QUOTE ]
Everything about the state sucks. [/ QUOTE ] In your opinion. [ QUOTE ] And it keeps on getting worse and it keeps on getting more expensive. [/ QUOTE ] In your opinion. [ QUOTE ] I don't get it. Why do you guys keep supporting this monster of an organization that's heading straight into fascism, bankruptcy and is planning YET another war of aggression. [/ QUOTE ] Supporting the existence of a democratic state should not be deemed to be tacit approval of everything the state does. [ QUOTE ] How do you guys not see the trend here.. [/ QUOTE ] If something is trending one way, it is not necessarily the most logical solution to completely destroy the entity so that the trend ceases. "Oh no, my car is rolling backwards down this hill. I suppose I could turn on the engine and try to get it to go forward again, but the trend is that it is rolling backwards so I'll just blow up the car instead. It sure won't be rolling backwards after that! Problem solved!" 
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#53
02-15-2007, 05:46 PM
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Re: Time to write off public education?
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[ QUOTE ] Everything about the state sucks. [/ QUOTE ] In your opinion. [ QUOTE ] And it keeps on getting worse and it keeps on getting more expensive. [/ QUOTE ] In your opinion. [/ QUOTE ] In other words, too bad, we don't care if you don't like it. Why do you disrespect others' preferences? Why do you seek to impose your own upon them? [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I don't get it. Why do you guys keep supporting this monster of an organization that's heading straight into fascism, bankruptcy and is planning YET another war of aggression. [/ QUOTE ] Supporting the existence of a democratic state should not be deemed to be tacit approval of everything the state does. [/ QUOTE ] It's EXPLICIT approval! You're living the dream. You got what you wanted.
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#55
02-15-2007, 06:01 PM
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Re: Time to write off public education?
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In other words, too bad, we don't care if you don't like it. Why do you disrespect others' preferences? Why do you seek to impose your own upon them? [/ QUOTE ] As we have been over many, many times, it not my preference that is being implemented by the state. It is the preference of the most people. As I pointed out in the other thread earlier today, the preference of the most people is the best we can hope for. Allowing everybody to roam free in AC land wouldn't make everyone's preferences materialize, so stop suggesting that the state is the sole reason why people don't have everything the want. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Supporting the existence of a democratic state should not be deemed to be tacit approval of everything the state does. [/ QUOTE ] It's EXPLICIT approval! You're living the dream. You got what you wanted. [/ QUOTE ] No I didn't. I don't want the exact tax rate I've got. I don't want all the laws I've got. I don't like everything that the state has put in place. But I am willing to live with not getting everything exactly as I want it through the state because I wouldn't get everything I wanted without the state anyway.
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#56
02-15-2007, 06:05 PM
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Re: Time to write off public education?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Japanese schools are also filled with Japanese kids. You are comparing apples and oranges. (Note: Education is a huge cultural value in Japan. Note to Iron- this is not race). [/ QUOTE ] I agree. So, perhaps the failure of American public education has nothing to do with the fact that the state provides the service -- perhaps it's just indicative of a problem with Americans? This would seem to contradict what nate claimed, namely that the failure of public education is due to the fact that the state attempts to provide the service. [/ QUOTE ] This may be right, but even so, it indicates that getting US public schools to perform at a level comparable to other rich-world countries is going to be inordinately difficult, if it's possible at all. My point with this post was to suggest that perhaps addressing this problem is best done in ways other than making our public high schools teach better.
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#57
02-15-2007, 06:14 PM
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Re: Time to write off public education?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] In other words, too bad, we don't care if you don't like it. Why do you disrespect others' preferences? Why do you seek to impose your own upon them? [/ QUOTE ] As we have been over many, many times, it not my preference that is being implemented by the state. It is the preference of the most people. [/ QUOTE ] But it is your preference that this method be used to select what gets imposed. You enjoy the imposition of that decision making process. You support it. [ QUOTE ] As I pointed out in the other thread earlier today, the preference of the most people is the best we can hope for. [/ QUOTE ] Best for whom? Why do you presuppose that only one prefernce is capable of being expressed; that one preference must be selected, elevated, subsidized, encouraged, and all others violentely suppressed? [ QUOTE ] Allowing everybody to roam free in AC land wouldn't make everyone's preferences materialize, so stop suggesting that the state is the sole reason why people don't have everything the want. [/ QUOTE ] Where has this been suggested? The fact that all preferences will not materialize is no justification for actively intervening to prevent many which would materialize from doing so. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Supporting the existence of a democratic state should not be deemed to be tacit approval of everything the state does. [/ QUOTE ] It's EXPLICIT approval! You're living the dream. You got what you wanted. [/ QUOTE ] No I didn't. I don't want the exact tax rate I've got. I don't want all the laws I've got. I don't like everything that the state has put in place. But I am willing to live with not getting everything exactly as I want it through the state because I wouldn't get everything I wanted without the state anyway. [/ QUOTE ] You want the apparatus that is used to decide all of those things. You know what the possible outcomes are. If I play with matches and burn your house down, can I use the "but that outcome isn't what I intended" as an excuse? Am I not liable?
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#58
02-15-2007, 06:34 PM
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Re: Time to write off public education?
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[ QUOTE ] I've thought for a while that school as we have it in the US is a huge waste. College is a 4 year vacation that makes a 40+ hour work week all the more depressing when you transition. Better off for society if we just learn what we need to learn and start earning 3 years earlier. I know you were talking about high school, but the same principles apply. [/ QUOTE ] Who gets to determine what's "good for society" and "what we need to learn"? Should there be a bureau of indoctrination that determines what jobs everyone will be assigned then prescribes a slate of instruction to maximize performance of that one narrow task? Narrowly-focused people are less fundamentally useful than broad-based people. Broad based education makes for more adaptable people. If *you* don't like college, or think it's a waste, then don't go - nobody is forced to, last time I checked. [/ QUOTE ] I loved college, would do it again in a heartbeat, and might do more some day. I'm not advocating the slightest bit of government involvement. I'm just saying that I think higher education evolved inefficiently (whether because of government or not). For 70%+ of kids, college is a big party. They're not interested in learning, they're just going through the motions. I think that most of what we learn in college, for most professions, is not that relevant. You get a degree in whatever, start your first day of work, and your co-worker teaches you everything you need to learn. I'm not saying that college can't be a very positive experience - but IMO for most people it's just a waste. It's a waste of their parents' money and a waste of their time when they could be earning. Of course you still need to go in this day and age to get any decent job, and it's a blast even if you're not interested in learning, but as I said, I think it's inefficient.
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#60
02-15-2007, 06:59 PM
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Re: Time to write off public education?
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Exactly --- Americans don't value education as greatly as other nations. The solution then is to to obviously privatize education --- then we'll care about it more [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] The attitude that most Americans have towards education is terrible. The problem is not our schools, it is the culture of anti-intellectualism and apathy that permeates US schools. Think about it, smart, hard-working kids get beat up and ostracized. And most kids just coast through school doing as little work as possible and not giving a crap about what the learn unless it affects their grades. And there are a lot of kids who don't even care about grades; they think its "cool" to get Ds and be deadbeats in general. It's taken for granted that even if you can do poorly in school you can get a decent paying middle class job or use your parents' connections to get a job. Even a good school cannot force an unmotivated and apathetic child to learn. In order for our country to become smarter, we need better parenting and a collective realization that a comfortable lifestyle can longer be sustained by a 5th grade education.
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