Somalia

[mjkidd]

adanthar,

My viewpoint is that if the article Boro linked to is accurate (and I have no reason to doubt its truthfulness), and the conditions in Somolia continue to improve in the absence of government, it would be powerful evidence that ACism can benefit a country. That is all. I can't really respond to you because you haven't really made a coherent point. I'd be glad to discuss this topic with you if choose to write intelligently about it.

[adanthar]

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That is all. I can't really respond to you because you haven't really made a coherent point. I'd be glad to discuss this topic with you if choose to write intelligently about it.

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So before when there were articles coming out describing how crappy Somalia was, Somalia wasn't considered a fair example of AC. But now that someone writes something positive, it is all of a sudden fair game? Sorry guys, but you can't have your cake and eat it too.

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One more time: is Somalia a good example *right now* or not? We can even assume that the article is accurate, as long as you allow everyone else to quote the 38757823785789279832 equally accurate articles that show how much of a hellhole the place is.

[mosdef]

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So before when there were articles coming out describing how crappy Somalia was, Somalia wasn't considered a fair example of AC. But now that someone writes something positive, it is all of a sudden fair game? Sorry guys, but you can't have your cake and eat it too.

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Oh boy, another Somalia post.

SB, you have a point here that there is some selective definition going on regarding Somalia in that, to the extent that things are generally bad in Somalia ACists are reluctant to hand their hat there, but to the extent that things are generally better there ACists may be eager to claim success.

The selectivism may not be as contradictory as you are suggesting though. We must differentiate between the level of "success" in the society and the change in the level before/after centralized government.

The level of succes in the society is low by most standards. I believe this level is constrained by the lack of resources and cultural attitudes in the region, and no level of government intervention, from 0 to complete, will "fix" this "problem" and make the society look appealing to a westerner who is used to what we have. In that regard, if the society is "hopelessly unsavable" to a westerner then observing the conditions in the society are "very bad" is neither a condemnation nor support for one system of another. However, observing that the removal of government has improved things does not mean that one thinks the improved product is "up to snuff" in the western sense, and is a valid observation that less government is good.

[mosdef]

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One more time: is Somalia a good example *right now* or not? We can even assume that the article is accurate, as long as you allow everyone else to quote the 38757823785789279832 equally accurate articles that show how much of a hellhole the place is.

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Not so, see my other post.

Somalia may be a good example of how less government makes a place better. It is not a good example of how good a place can become with less government.

[mjkidd]

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That is all. I can't really respond to you because you haven't really made a coherent point. I'd be glad to discuss this topic with you if choose to write intelligently about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

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So before when there were articles coming out describing how crappy Somalia was, Somalia wasn't considered a fair example of AC. But now that someone writes something positive, it is all of a sudden fair game? Sorry guys, but you can't have your cake and eat it too.

[/ QUOTE ]

One more time: is Somalia a good example *right now* or not? We can even assume that the article is accurate, as long as you allow everyone else to quote the 38757823785789279832 equally accurate articles that show how much of a hellhole the place is.

[/ QUOTE ]

I already said that I don't think that there is enough information. It seems that Somalia is currently an social and economic experiment in progress, and I just don't think that the results of the experiment can be judged yet. Things will be clearer in another 5-10 years or so. But one thing is clear -- Somalia didn't become a hellhole because of anarchy, but rather because of a war due to factions fighting to assume governmental powers. If Somalia is able to recover and prosper under anarchy, that would truly be remarkable.

[adanthar]

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One more time: is Somalia a good example *right now* or not? We can even assume that the article is accurate, as long as you allow everyone else to quote the 38757823785789279832 equally accurate articles that show how much of a hellhole the place is.

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Not so, see my other post.

Somalia may be a good example of how less government makes a place better. It is not a good example of how good a place can become with less government.

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You make a fair point about selectivity. The problem is that the conclusion would, at best, be that less *Somalian* government makes the place better. In other words, if the conclusions bear out, anarchy might be better for Somalia than what passed for the previous government it had. There are a few other governments around the world where this is unquestionably true, but that's also not a positive statement.

Having said all of that, the question of whether Somalia is a good example of AC or not still remains unanswered.

edit: BTW, I'd also like to point out here that Somalia has a very strong clan structure, and, in the absence of a centralized government for the entire country, has basically resorted to its traditional type of clan-based feudalism - within the clan, all major decisions are made by the elders, the clans negotiate on their own legal system, etc. Does this still count as anarchy? Serious question.

[TomCollins]

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One more time: is Somalia a good example *right now* or not? We can even assume that the article is accurate, as long as you allow everyone else to quote the 38757823785789279832 equally accurate articles that show how much of a hellhole the place is.

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Not so, see my other post.

Somalia may be a good example of how less government makes a place better. It is not a good example of how good a place can become with less government.

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When non-ACists make people choose between living in Somalia vs. living in the USA as an example of how things are working, its like asking if you would rather be crippled and have a hot wife vs. having all your physical functionality and having an ugly wife.

Almost all people will chose having the ugly wife, but this in no way is an endorsement of having a preference for ugly women. It just means that other variables outweigh it.

I would rather live in Somalia than many other craphole African countries that have other similarities. But no way I would live there over the USA.

[pvn]

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One more time: is Somalia a good example *right now* or not? We can even assume that the article is accurate, as long as you allow everyone else to quote the 38757823785789279832 equally accurate articles that show how much of a hellhole the place is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not so, see my other post.

Somalia may be a good example of how less government makes a place better. It is not a good example of how good a place can become with less government.

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Ding, triple gold star.

[Zygote]

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That is all. I can't really respond to you because you haven't really made a coherent point. I'd be glad to discuss this topic with you if choose to write intelligently about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

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So before when there were articles coming out describing how crappy Somalia was, Somalia wasn't considered a fair example of AC. But now that someone writes something positive, it is all of a sudden fair game? Sorry guys, but you can't have your cake and eat it too.

[/ QUOTE ]

One more time: is Somalia a good example *right now* or not? We can even assume that the article is accurate, as long as you allow everyone else to quote the 38757823785789279832 equally accurate articles that show how much of a hellhole the place is.

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Somalia is not an example of pure anarcho capitalism since there are intervening factions and considering the past history's left overs. In addition, effective measures of private property have not fully arisen.

What we do know from this case is the effect of removing government control/planning and freeing individuals on a large basis.

Further, no one ever said Somalia is not a [censored] hole. All they said was they were better off without government than with. Why dont you or anyone else try and dispute a point on this line?

[Copernicus]

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That is all. I can't really respond to you because you haven't really made a coherent point. I'd be glad to discuss this topic with you if choose to write intelligently about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
So before when there were articles coming out describing how crappy Somalia was, Somalia wasn't considered a fair example of AC. But now that someone writes something positive, it is all of a sudden fair game? Sorry guys, but you can't have your cake and eat it too.

[/ QUOTE ]

One more time: is Somalia a good example *right now* or not? We can even assume that the article is accurate, as long as you allow everyone else to quote the 38757823785789279832 equally accurate articles that show how much of a hellhole the place is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Somalia is not an example of pure anarcho capitalism since there are intervening factions and considering the past history's left overs.

What we do know from this case is the effect of removing government control/planning and freeing individuals on a large basis.

Further, no one ever said Somalia is not a [censored] hole. All they said was they were better off without government than with. Why dont you or anyone else try and dispute a point on this line?

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Why dont you or anyone else try and prove that it is "lack of government" that is responsible for the improvements? Correlation != causation.

One of the most important influences in Somalia and most likely largely responsible for improvement is barely two years old, and that is the emerging dominance of the UIC and Saudi financial support in hopes of converting the country to radical Islam.

Unless and until there is some credible way to link improvement with lack of government the jury hasnt even begun deliberating.