Somalia

[ShakeZula06]

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Somalia = good example? Yes or no?


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Good example of what?

[ShakeZula06]

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Hopefully now the statists will agree that ACism is possible and sustainable, something MANY of the statists have disagreed with in the past.

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Hold on buckaroo - you're ready to declare Somalia's socioeconomic environment "stable" already?

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This actually something I wanted to ask about, I didn't notice anywhere in the article about rates of violence. Either way it is becoming *more* stable, is it not? Perhaps it would be more stable if the UN and the US stopped trying to impose governments that the people don't want and have never peacefully lived under.

[Phil153]

God this thread is stupid. For something to be "anarcho capitalist", it needs to

- be free from the government for a long period of time (anarchy)
- have respect for property and free trade (capitalism)

Otherwise it's not anarcho capitalist, duh!

The stupidity and shoehorning inherent to this position should be obvious. OBVIOUSLY if everyone is respecting property rights and thus both human rights and contracts, then society is going to be fairly functional (though I would argue much less functional than one with a government, but that's a separate argument). It's a completely circular argument made by a bunch of jokers.

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Gone are the doomsday theories that say government oversight is needed or else the market (and society) collapses. Hopefully now the statists will agree that ACism is possible and sustainable, something MANY of the statists have disagreed with in the past.

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LOL at basing this on a single stupid, biased article. Go read the wikipedia Somalia article to see how ridiculously lobsided the OP's article is. For example, there are regions of government in the country which are semi functional. Is any effort made to exclude these? Some areas under the control of brutal warlords or Islamic courts imposing Sharia law have improved in stability. Other metrics not mentioned in the OP have actually gotten worse. Foreign aid is feeding and providing essential medical support for many. Civil war continues to rage in parts of the country between private militias and Islamic power brokers. Where relative peace was establish, it was because warlords or islamic fundamentalists ruled over an area (and much of this has since descended into civil war). It's a nasty place to live, 16 years after the government disappeared. How long exactly is this anarchy business supposed to take? The other point to note is that statistics compared are from during the very worst period under Somalia's government, just before the collapse of the economy and government (late 80s), coupled with severe drought which caused humanitarian crises.

If you read impartial accounts, such as wikipedia, doctors without borders ( http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/somalia.cfm ), you'll see that Somalia continues to be in a terrible state, even compared to other African nations.

[elwoodblues]

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Somalia = good example? Yes or no?


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Good example of what?

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If anything, Somalia might be a good example of a possible transition from a government state to an(admittedly oxymoronic term) anarchic state. What remains to be seen, and likely won't be known for quite some time, is whether the transition will continue, whether a government (or many governments) will form, whether the economy will grow/thrive/survive, whether any economic growth can be fairly attributable to the free market given the large amounts of aid from both non-governmental and governmental foreign agencies.

[ShakeZula06]

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Somalia = good example? Yes or no?


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Good example of what?

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If anything, Somalia might be a good example of a possible transition from a government state to an(admittedly oxymoronic term) anarchic state.

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Yes it could. I also don't think *any* anarchic state is particularly a good thing for Somalia. If it's culture is one that doesn't respect private property, contract, and trade then it's going to be [censored] regardless.

Anyways, it's not even a question of *if* Somalia can be stateless. They've been a stateless society until western powers attempted to institute it on them. This mysteriously coincided with chaos.
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What remains to be seen, and likely won't be known for quite some time, is whether the transition will continue, whether a government (or many governments) will form,

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Well as long as the US and UN continue pumping money and support into governments that the Somalis don't even recognize as legitmate there remains the chance that a state will form. When they leave sure there is a chance even then states could be formed, but that runs counter to the history of their culture.
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whether the economy will grow/thrive/survive, whether any economic growth can be fairly attributable to the free market given the large amounts of aid from both non-governmental and governmental foreign agencies.

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"Somalia's pastoral economy is now stronger than that of either neighboring Kenya or Ethiopia. It is the largest exporter of livestock of any East African country. Telecommunications have burgeoned in Somalia; a call from a mobile phone is cheaper in Somalia than anywhere else in Africa. A small number of international investors are finding that the level of security of property and contract in Somalia warrants doing business there. Among these companies are Dole, BBC, the courier DHL, British Airways, General Motors, and Coca Cola, which recently opened a large bottling plant in Mogadishu. A 5-star Ambassador Hotel is operating in Hargeisa, and three new universities are fully functional: Amoud University (1997) in Borama, and Mogadishu University (1997), and University of Benadir (2002) in Mogadishu."

What of these have been provided by foriegn aid (not rhetorical or sarcastic, I don't know much about the area but I'm assuming this is a market success)?

[Richard Tanner]

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the problem with some of us maybe is that we don't blindly trust in the market while you do - you want to believe

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I'm not an ACist but I trust the market 100%. It's people I don't trust.

Cody

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That statement can be read two ways, and Im not sure which you mean. "The market is made of people, so in an imperfect world even a near-perfect system like the market can fail", or "The market is such a good system it can overcome the failings of people". The former is reality imo.

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The former was my meaning.

Cody

[ShakeZula06]

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the problem with some of us maybe is that we don't blindly trust in the market while you do - you want to believe

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Good job reading his mind. That's always a good substitute for an argument.