NL25 I 3bet QQ prefl, cold-call behind me

WantToLearn · #1 11-26-2007, 07:02 PM

Ok, some more advice wanted, thank you very much in advance!

There is a raise before me, I 3-bet w/ QQ and then there is a cold call behind me.

Questions: All comments are very welcome, especialy on flop decisions obviously.

Reads: It was weakend gambling mood at the table, but I have no specific reads on the two villains involved here. They are only playing one table at a time, and they don´t seem to get way out of line. They did not come to gamble for stacks with every other hand, that´s all I know for sure.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP1 ($28.55)
Hero ($29.45)
CO ($5.90)
Button ($25.90)
SB ($12.25)
BB ($24.10)
UTG ($11.80)
UTG+1 ($25.60)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 raises to $1, Hero raises to $4.75, 1 fold, Button calls $4.75, 2 folds, MP1 calls $3.75.

Flop: ($14.60) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets $10.25, Button raises to $21.15, MP1 folds, Hero calls $10.90.

 Ok, alarm bells are "on" as I know what that preflop cold-call behind me often means. But then again, it often means JJ,TT,AK, random stuff as well. I have an overpair, I lead, and when he raises I don´t like it but can I fold now? 

Turn: ($56.90) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

River: ($56.90) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: $56.90

RapidLearner · #2 11-26-2007, 07:11 PM

Even though I've seen AA/KK played this way, this appears completely reasonable to me. You're getting about 4.5:1 to call here, so it would be difficult to fold to an unknown. Villain could very well have 88-JJ and 7X.

If you saw AA or KK here, I'd chalk it up to a cooler and put a note on the villain.

LearningCurve · #3 11-26-2007, 07:12 PM

Well, you have a bit more than 1/2 of your stack in already. Your c-bet basically pot-committed you. I'd call but I wouldn't be real happy about it.

WantToLearn · #4 11-26-2007, 07:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Well, you have a bit more than 1/2 of your stack in already. Your c-bet basically pot-committed you. I'd call but I wouldn't be real happy about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

So do you check that flop? Or make a bet of a smaller size?

Johnes Benjamin · #5 11-26-2007, 07:22 PM

cbet is fine IMO. I would think AK is biggest possibility so you have to cbet that. Obv. when he raises AK is not likely anymore but since the flop makes a lot of PP's overpairs I think he will stack off very light.
I would be very surprised if JJ or TT didn't play it the same, and since you have so much money invested it is an easy call

Chargers In 07 · #6 11-26-2007, 07:24 PM

Pretty easy call once you bet the flop. If he has KK+ and only two combos of another pair in his hand you're making a +ev call. I can't see not betting this flop either.

LearningCurve · #7 11-26-2007, 07:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, you have a bit more than 1/2 of your stack in already. Your c-bet basically pot-committed you. I'd call but I wouldn't be real happy about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

So do you check that flop? Or make a bet of a smaller size?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm actually glad you asked. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I was just thinking about editing my first post to get more of a discussion going about the optimal flop line.

I was chatting with a 6-max friend yesterday on AIM, and I mentioned that I play terribly in 3-bet pots as I always find myself committed when I don't really want to be. He suggested that I bet too much on the flop in a 3-bet pot. It was his recommendation that the bet be somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3 rather than my standard 3/4 or so. This seems reasonable to me, and on this flop it would have made the difference in being committed and not. On the downside, we aren't HU here so I'm not certain whether a smaller bet would be wise.

Thoughts?

Chargers In 07 · #8 11-26-2007, 07:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]Depends on SPR, my hand, villains range, and board texture. I vary from half pot to full pot.

RapidLearner · #9 11-26-2007, 07:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, you have a bit more than 1/2 of your stack in already. Your c-bet basically pot-committed you. I'd call but I wouldn't be real happy about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

So do you check that flop? Or make a bet of a smaller size?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm actually glad you asked. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I was just thinking about editing my first post to get more of a discussion going about the optimal flop line.

I was chatting with a 6-max friend yesterday on AIM, and I mentioned that I play terribly in 3-bet pots as I always find myself committed when I don't really want to be. He suggested that I bet too much on the flop in a 3-bet pot. It was his recommendation that the bet be somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3 rather than my standard 3/4 or so. This seems reasonable to me, and on this flop it would have made the difference in being committed and not. On the downside, we aren't HU here so I'm not certain whether a smaller bet would be wise.

Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're suggesting $7-$8 as a flop bet to avoid pot commitment? You're still getting about 4:1 odds to call a shove in that situation.

Only reason to do this is if you think a weaker overpair is more likely to come over the top of you than with a $10 bet.

negipai98 · #10 11-26-2007, 07:42 PM

Definitely a tight spot you’ve gotten yourself into there without any solid reads on the players. Once the button has moved all in and MP1 folds, the pot is about $46 and its $10.90 more to you to call. What is the button’s range? Assuming he’s not too wild (sort of what you implied) an overcall pre-flop and a 3-bet all-in on a board full of undercards could reasonably be perhaps 99, TT, JJ, QQ (but let’s discount this since you already have it), KK and AA. My thought is that you’re probably beat here, but not enough to throw the hand away getting those odds (you’re getting over 4:1). So go ahead and call and stack off as necessary.

Pre-flop I like the raise but without knowing much about your image it is tough to tell how the table will perceive your actions. The challenge here is really what to do on the flop. Your bet kind of prices you into a shove, so is there merit to betting less, perhaps ½ the pot? Say you fire $7.30 into this and the button does the same thing…your odds versus his range are still very good so you’re probably calling. If you pot it on the flop you’re still likely calling if either the button or MP 1 shoves. I guess the smaller bet allows you to escape if button shoves and MP calls. Being in the middle of the original raiser and the button really makes it tough for you here.

Like I said, not a pretty picture, but with that action on that flop I suppose there are not too many ways to avoid getting it all in there – especially after MP1 folded. I’d certainly be interested in others thoughts on this one since it does tend to happen a lot and I loathe stacking off with just a pair.

Good luck.