More controversy -- river bet-call with 3PBK

Entity · #1 08-21-2006, 10:02 PM

MP is loose, doesn't raise much preflop but tends to be more aggressive after the flop than his preflop play would suggest. While he raises about 10% of his hands preflop he makes up for it postflop; I've seen him raise the turn with questionable draws, play gutshots and middle pair aggressively, etc. He tends to show down any pair too often.

Button is loose and calls down with very very very marginal holdings often.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP calls, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, Hero checks.

Flop: (3.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP checks, Button checks.

Turn: (1.75 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP calls, Button calls.

River: (4.75 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP raises, Button folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB

helpmeout · #2 08-21-2006, 10:07 PM

when you get 2 calls on the turn I'm likely check/folding that river

The Bryce · #3 08-22-2006, 12:21 AM

There's like, no value in betting the turn. Indoooose.

Victor · #4 08-22-2006, 12:39 AM

wow i really hate ur river bet. what do you beat here? i cant imagine ace high makes up enough of his range.

Entity · #5 08-22-2006, 12:42 AM

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wow i really hate ur river bet. what do you beat here? i cant imagine ace high makes up enough of his range.

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It's 3-ways and Button (my main target with the valuebet since I think the other will have a hand weaker than Jx very often given his general aggression) will call with any pocket pair, any 4, and occasionally Ace high. I've seen him calldown with KQ-high on monotone boards when he held none of the specific suit. He's a pretty big payoff station. HU I think I can check to induce but I felt at the time that with the station protecting the pot I put myself into an icky position when MP bets and Button calls, because MP will still make retarded bluffs and station will still call with a wide range, but I'm not sure that my hand good nearly as often when it goes check-bet-call (and I should fold, as helpmeout suggested) than when I do the betting msyelf. Of course, then I get myself in this spot, and...

What's the weakest hand everyone who suggests checking the river would bet here, 3-ways, against this lineup?

Rob

cartman · #6 08-22-2006, 07:33 AM

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I felt at the time that with the station protecting the pot I put myself into an icky position when MP bets and Button calls, because MP will still make retarded bluffs and station will still call with a wide range, but I'm not sure that my hand good nearly as often when it goes check-bet-call

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I think you may be mixing apples and oranges here. Given that neither of them fold, your hand will be good more often if it you check and it goes bet-call and if you bet and it goes call-call. The reason is that the first scenario includes bluffs by MP. You may feel better about betting, but that is just because at the time that you bet you won't yet know whether MP will call.

I don't hate your bet because I think it is likely enough that MP would have spoken up by now if he had a hand better than yours. But if he is likely to bluff if you check, then in my opinion you should give him the chance and not feel any worse about calling them both than you would have about betting.

I think the important thing to realize is that neither of them is folding a better hand than yours anyway so, if you don't have the winner when you overcall the river, you wouldn't have had the winner if you bet either.

Are you confused yet? I know I am [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Cartman

cartman · #7 08-22-2006, 07:39 AM

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What's the weakest hand everyone who suggests checking the river would bet here, 3-ways, against this lineup?

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For me this depends almost entirely on how likely it is MP would have bet or raised sooner with a J or K and how likely it is he will bluff if I check. Just from your description I would think around JT caliber but that is rank speculation.

MATT111 · #8 08-22-2006, 08:00 AM

On the turn you have enough reason to think your hand is best and you will get calls from worse hands a lot. I still like c/calling better as a bet will likely come from MP and BT will call very often. Also you would really hate getting raised.
As played I like the river bet as BT may have picked up a worse pair on the turn or river and MP may call with a small pp as well. I guess you really have to fold to the river raise unless MP is a complete retard. Your read suggest he would have popped somethging like an OESD on the turn. (My guess would be he rivered a set).

john kane · #9 08-22-2006, 03:10 PM

i bet turn and check-call river

jay b. · #10 08-22-2006, 03:15 PM

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There's like, no value in betting the turn.

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How come?