Adults dupe teen into MySpace-assisted suicide

[mbillie1]

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How is anybody ever responsible for the actions of someone else (not speaking legally)?

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How can you compare off-handed trolling of a bum to premeditated harassment of a child?

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The offense may be more despicable, but imo fundamentally nobody is ever responsible for the actions of another. You can't control what other people do, just like nobody can control what you do. Your actions are your own. It's pretty easy to shirk off that responsibility by blaming circumstance or environment or outside forces, but everybody's actions are still their own responsibility and nobody else's.

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Something to consider here is that I think it's pretty well known that children who are raped at a young age are mentally affected by it and their relationships will suffer perpetually unless they receive a LOT of counseling treatment.

I think something like this argues against what you're saying. While, in theory, they control their own actions, it is a pretty universal thing for them to all have certain problems thereafter in their life (e.g., sexual addiction).

So I don't think your statement is quite as universal as you're trying to imply.

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I agree, but I believe GoT's point is that the only way to make sense of the law is to treat everyone as if he/she was responsible for his/her actions entirely. Obviously we're all products of our environments/genetic makeups. Given infinite knowledge you could probably have a pretty good idea how/why I do things, be able to predict them/understand them causally... but that doesn't absolve me of responsibility, you know? Whether or not it's the case that we are caused by certain environmental factors in much of our action/decision making (which I agree with you - we almost certainly ARE), if the law were to try and reflect this then it would be a hopeless sea of chain-of-causality-pass-the-buck

so we're left with: we're all physical creatures, probably just part of a large mechanistic process and hence not "responsible" for any of our actions really

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the only sensible way to legislate is as if we were responsible for all of our actions

imo at least

[Alobar]

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How is anybody ever responsible for the actions of someone else (not speaking legally)?

[/ QUOTE ]

How can you compare off-handed trolling of a bum to premeditated harassment of a child?

[/ QUOTE ]
The offense may be more despicable, but imo fundamentally nobody is ever responsible for the actions of another. You can't control what other people do, just like nobody can control what you do. Your actions are your own. It's pretty easy to shirk off that responsibility by blaming circumstance or environment or outside forces, but everybody's actions are still their own responsibility and nobody else's.

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Something to consider here is that I think it's pretty well known that children who are raped at a young age are mentally affected by it and their relationships will suffer perpetually unless they receive a LOT of counseling treatment.

I think something like this argues against what you're saying. While, in theory, they control their own actions, it is a pretty universal thing for them to all have certain problems thereafter in their life (e.g., sexual addiction).

So I don't think your statement is quite as universal as you're trying to imply.

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I agree, but I believe GoT's point is that the only way to make sense of the law is to treat everyone as if he/she was responsible for his/her actions entirely. Obviously we're all products of our environments/genetic makeups. Given infinite knowledge you could probably have a pretty good idea how/why I do things, be able to predict them/understand them causally... but that doesn't absolve me of responsibility, you know? Whether or not it's the case that we are caused by certain environmental factors in much of our action/decision making (which I agree with you - we almost certainly ARE), if the law were to try and reflect this then it would be a hopeless sea of chain-of-causality-pass-the-buck

so we're left with: we're all physical creatures, probably just part of a large mechanistic process and hence not "responsible" for any of our actions really

and

the only sensible way to legislate is as if we were responsible for all of our actions

imo at least

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so where does the insanity plea fit into that?

[SoloAJ]

I see what you're saying mbillie. I just think there are certain things which we control our own actions a little more than others. In my rape/sex example, I think that they aren't really responsible for their own actions entirely. Surely they will be legally and such, but I'd say they're less responsible than something like if they murdered someone for cutting them off in the turn lane.

I see why you were arguing for a legal slippery slope problem. But I also think that we're being a little silly to note hold a fair chunk of responsibility on the bully parents. Maybe not all, and maybe not legally....but the fact that we all find it deplorable seems indicative to me that we all weight some responsibility on their shoulders.

[mbillie1]

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so where does the insanity plea fit into that?

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well the insanity plea is an example of excusing behavior on the grounds that we can show it to have been caused. the thing is, with enough data, a lot of behavior can be shown to be caused, so although at the moment the insanity plea functions practically, in 20-30 years if we have umpteen times more information on human psychology, it may seem arbitrary/unfair

eg "insane" and "sane" are degrees, not qualitatively different

[GuyOnTilt]

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How is anybody ever responsible for the actions of someone else (not speaking legally)?

[/ QUOTE ]

How can you compare off-handed trolling of a bum to premeditated harassment of a child?

[/ QUOTE ]
The offense may be more despicable, but imo fundamentally nobody is ever responsible for the actions of another. You can't control what other people do, just like nobody can control what you do. Your actions are your own. It's pretty easy to shirk off that responsibility by blaming circumstance or environment or outside forces, but everybody's actions are still their own responsibility and nobody else's.

[/ QUOTE ]

Something to consider here is that I think it's pretty well known that children who are raped at a young age are mentally affected by it and their relationships will suffer perpetually unless they receive a LOT of counseling treatment.

I think something like this argues against what you're saying. While, in theory, they control their own actions, it is a pretty universal thing for them to all have certain problems thereafter in their life (e.g., sexual addiction).

So I don't think your statement is quite as universal as you're trying to imply.

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Since we're on a philosophical level, I guess I would say that just because someone may be more prone to certain behaviour than others does not mean they are forced to do it. My chemical balance is different than anybody else's anmecause us to be drawn to certain behaviour, but that doesn't mean I am forced to act on it. That choice is still mine. It's often easier and less painful to pawn those bad choices off, esp if there was some mental chain reaction put into motion by something someone said to me or did to me or whatever, but in the end my choices are mine and as such I should bear the full responsibility for them.

[Alobar]

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How is anybody ever responsible for the actions of someone else (not speaking legally)?

[/ QUOTE ]

How can you compare off-handed trolling of a bum to premeditated harassment of a child?

[/ QUOTE ]
The offense may be more despicable, but imo fundamentally nobody is ever responsible for the actions of another. You can't control what other people do, just like nobody can control what you do. Your actions are your own. It's pretty easy to shirk off that responsibility by blaming circumstance or environment or outside forces, but everybody's actions are still their own responsibility and nobody else's.

[/ QUOTE ]

Something to consider here is that I think it's pretty well known that children who are raped at a young age are mentally affected by it and their relationships will suffer perpetually unless they receive a LOT of counseling treatment.

I think something like this argues against what you're saying. While, in theory, they control their own actions, it is a pretty universal thing for them to all have certain problems thereafter in their life (e.g., sexual addiction).

So I don't think your statement is quite as universal as you're trying to imply.

[/ QUOTE ]
Since we're on a philosophical level, I guess I would say that just because someone may be more prone to certain behaviour than others does not mean they are forced to do it. My chemical balance is different than anybody else's anmecause us to be drawn to certain behaviour, but that doesn't mean I am forced to act on it. That choice is still mine. It's often easier and less painful to pawn those bad choices off, esp if there was some mental chain reaction put into motion by something someone said to me or did to me or whatever, but in the end my choices are mine and as such I should bear the full responsibility for them.

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Your choices are your own. But you cant choose a path you cant see. And for a lot of abused/molested people I don't think they see a choice for some of their actions. Hence why they need counceling and such, they have to learn there actually are choices to be made.

[GuyOnTilt]

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I disagree. If I take someone who I know is emotionally unstable and I put them in a situation to purposely torment and hurt them, and not just by calling them poor or ugly mind you, I take weeks and build up their trust. I make them fall for me, and become an integral part of their emotional well being, by building them up, making them rely on me to feel good about their self, giving them value as a person and then I drastically snatch that away in the worst possible way, and completely humiliate and degrade them, as an adult I realize there is going to be a reaction to that. it might not have been the one I thought it was going to be, but there sure is [censored] is going to be one, and you cant predict what its going to be from someone unstable, but yes I am responsible for the outcome.

This isnt teasing someone at lunch, this isnt making fun of some homeless guy. This is a total mindfuck that took place over an extended period of time. Comparing these two situations shows a complete lack of understanding about what took place here.

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All you're saying here is that the action of teasing them is more despicable, which I fully agree with. I completely disagree with your assumption that PersonA can or should be held responsible for what PersonB chooses to do with their life. Everybody is affected by others; that's unavoidable and I'd hate to think what life would be life if that wasn't the case. But thankfully we all have the freedom to make our own choices. We don't often have control of our circumstance, but our voluntary actions are just that. The mindset that other people should, or even CAN, be held morally responsible for my own actions is self-justifying cop-out BS.

[The Owl]

Guys, their foosball table got destroyed, haven't they suffered enough?

[mbillie1]

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Guys, their foosball table got destroyed, haven't they suffered enough?

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[img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] lawlz

[Alobar]

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I disagree. If I take someone who I know is emotionally unstable and I put them in a situation to purposely torment and hurt them, and not just by calling them poor or ugly mind you, I take weeks and build up their trust. I make them fall for me, and become an integral part of their emotional well being, by building them up, making them rely on me to feel good about their self, giving them value as a person and then I drastically snatch that away in the worst possible way, and completely humiliate and degrade them, as an adult I realize there is going to be a reaction to that. it might not have been the one I thought it was going to be, but there sure is [censored] is going to be one, and you cant predict what its going to be from someone unstable, but yes I am responsible for the outcome.

This isnt teasing someone at lunch, this isnt making fun of some homeless guy. This is a total mindfuck that took place over an extended period of time. Comparing these two situations shows a complete lack of understanding about what took place here.

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All you're saying here is that the action of teasing them is more despicable, which I fully agree with. I completely disagree with your assumption that PersonA can or should be held responsible for what PersonB chooses to do with their life. Everybody is affected by others; that's unavoidable and I'd hate to think what life would be life if that wasn't the case. But thankfully we all have the freedom to make our own choices. We don't often have control of our circumstance, but our voluntary actions are just that. The mindset that other people should, or even CAN, be held morally responsible for my own actions is self-justifying cop-out BS.

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ok, different scenario, but im curious as to what you think about it.

I start a cult, I get some weak minded emotionally troubled people with an intense desire to be accepted and to follow. I then spend several months mindfucking and brainwashing them until they think I am the grand exalted poohbah supreme God of the universe. Then I tell them to start going out and killing people. Since their actions are thier own, I am no way responsible for the deaths of the people they chose to kill, since they obviously could have chosen not to do it. So morally in your opinion I am guilt free? legally as well?