commerce 40, weird action vs 2p2er

[Chris Daddy Cool]

guys, coldcalling with KQs in this spot isn't really as bad as you guys make it out to be.

[surfdoc]

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BTW if you check/3bet the turn then I think his 4betting range needs to be JT and that's it. I think coldcalling with QQ preflop is awful so I'll pretend he can't have that.

Also for your hand I think the best play is to cap the flop and then c/r safe turn cards but perhaps your cap will be seen as too strong and the play would be better for someone with a crackfiend type image. If you don't think you can get away with cap and then c/r the best play is to cap and keep betting until someone tells you that your hand is not best.

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A few points here worth discussing. If he will only 4 bet JT which I think is 100% correct, is that an argument to just call the turn or to go ahead and check 3 bet?

I had a much more detailed read than Surf had on the initial pfr. He had so far played slightly to loose with his limps but definitely too tight with his raises. When he 3 bet the flop I knew he loved his hand and would bet any turn. However, I also knew that he was a little bit weak and not that good a hand reader. So, the cap the flop then CR the turn play was suboptimal here. If this was the 1/2 than I like that line a lot since they play so fearless/spewy and will put you on a draw that jammed and then missed.

I had a pretty tough time putting surf on a hand but he sure looked like he was drawing and the pfr sure looked like he was betting so getting to CR the turn was way too juicy to pass up being the big street whore that I am.

BTW, I had seen the initial pfr to make some pretty ugly calls with weakish draws getting inadequate prices so him calling 2 more here with an overpair was not that unlikley. I was kinda getting the feeling he wanted to showdown his big pair so he could show the table how unlucky he was.

[emerson]

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I was actually the BB in this hand. Surf was the CO. It was just more interesting to post from my side of it. Anyway, before I post what really happened, I want to hear what hands people think surf (the CO here) could 4 bet the turn with. That should help us figure out a plan for the rest of the hand. Keep in mind we know each other really well and play a very similar style.

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Cut off could have A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], or 88.

[ssmallz]

Surfs cold calling range includes 88 and 55. Don't forget that he's been playing a lot of NL lately and might be used to cold calling w/them regularly. These are hand he might certainly call the flop w/and raise the turn. Another factor to consider is what percentage of the time the initialy pfr folds to your check 3bet since he's certainly calling the raise w/his likely overpair. If he's calling your 3 bet you can go ahead and do it more often b/c even if you get capped you've still got 25% equity getting 2:1 on your money. Not great but you factor in the times that surf raise w/out a strait you've still got good equity to go ahead and 3bet. However, if Surfs read on pfr is that he's too tight to raise light and too loose to fold a big pair then his turn raise could almost certainly mean JT and calling might be the best option.

Overall I think calling and donking a safe river might be the way to go as surf won't value bet hands like AcQc or KcQc if the river bricks off. On top of that check 3betting the river such a strong play that it will likely drive out the initial pfr.

[Bicycles_Biatch]

88 or 55... maybe he was taking the same line you were with your set... you said you guys play very similar, he has gotten out of line a couple times, and maybe he likes his posistion.

I think he's got the under-set.

10-J or 6-7 for two bets preflop from a 2+2 that knows what's up against an UTG raiser just doesn't make sense.

[surfdoc]

So I went ahead with the plan and check 3 bet. UTG + 1 folds A9o face up to my 3 bet (yes that hand was way out of character for him to have but at least my read that he would bet the turn was right. Surf 4 bets pretty much in tempo. I call and the river is a Td I think so the board is 9h8c5cQhTd. I check, surf bets. My turn and I do what?

[HOWMANY]

Throw a bet in the trash can aka the pot and tell them to write "I flopped a set" on your tombstone. Honestly you should really fold but when the pot is 500 bets I don't have it in me.

My biggest leak I think is not actually utilizing reads/obvious information and folding marginal hands that are winners while paying off with "big" hands that are clear losers, so I might not be the one to listen to in this spot.

[Bicycles_Biatch]

RESULTS? I'm bitting at the bit... it sucks BTW... but if you fold the river that's probably a mistake. Especially since you noted that this notable has gotten out of line a couple times during the session... just hope this is one of those times.

[surfdoc]

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RESULTS? I'm bitting at the bit... it sucks BTW... but if you fold the river that's probably a mistake. Especially since you noted that this notable has gotten out of line a couple times during the session... just hope this is one of those times.

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When did I say that surf has been out of line?

Think about this hand from surf's perspective for a second and narrow down my range. I CR a tight player and a very good player on the flop. Then I check/3 bet the turn when the flush draw misses but the most likely hand I could have combinatorically hits (JT). My line has to look so super strong yet he doesn't care and 4 bets me like his life depends on it. Why exactly is that? Does he think that 55 or 88 is the nuts? In addition, if he has 55 or 88 how sick will it be when he gets his arse 5 bet?

[VBCurtis]

Could he have 55, and think you would fold 88 and 99 to his line? His view of your range could well be 88, 99, JT. If he thinks you could find a fold with the sets, his play is optimal, no?