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#13
06-15-2007, 05:45 PM
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Re: 10-20 at the RIo
[ QUOTE ]
Nobody raised the flop and the flop bettor now checked the turn. None of those hand sound like an ace they're proud of. [/ QUOTE ] They may not be proud enough of it to bet, but that doesn't mean they're folding. 
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#14
06-15-2007, 06:00 PM
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Re: 10-20 at the RIo
PF: Easy call.
Flop: Easy raise in a crowd and a big pot. Turn: Easy bet. River: Check/bet depending how many are with you at that point and what their calling range is. As it played out, call/raise. I live for tables like this, where's the disconnect CardSharpCook? And it's a shame the board at the Rio is showing the future of limit poker: 2 10-games, 1 20-game and a dozen 2-5NL games. - Jim
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#15
06-15-2007, 06:03 PM
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Re: 10-20 at the RIo
[ QUOTE ]
I fold this pre-flop because I am a nit. If I didnt feel confident enough to bet the turn, I don't feel confident enough to call the river as played. [/ QUOTE ] [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] - Jim
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#16
06-15-2007, 06:08 PM
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Re: 10-20 at the RIo
[ QUOTE ]
I meant to ask him about this myself. How many players must he anticipate in the pot to make cold calling with QT suited profitable? [/ QUOTE ] It depends on who's behind you as well and who limped. But, in general, I play a lot of "crap" hands in multiway pots like this for a single raise. Especially with excellent relative position like in this hand. It looks like OP had a great seat at this table. Q8s, J8s, etc are all playable for me. Good multi-way hands. Besides, it's fun to play. - Jim
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#17
06-15-2007, 09:21 PM
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Re: 10-20 at the RIo
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Nobody raised the flop and the flop bettor now checked the turn. None of those hand sound like an ace they're proud of. [/ QUOTE ] They may not be proud enough of it to bet, but that doesn't mean they're folding. [/ QUOTE ] this is my general impression of these tables. Frequently you'll be surprised at the strength of hands turned over at showdown given the lack of action during the betting rounds. I really think that betting this turn is spewy. Being able to raise someone here is much different as we might fold out the real ace, but a mere bet is gonna be called by a better hand(s) over 90% of the time IMO. At the river, after the button checked the turn and the PFR is still not betting, our odds of having the best hand have increased dramatically. Just because everyone checks to you and you have a pair, doesn't mean you have the best hand, and certainly doesn't mean you have to bet it. Consensus seems to be that we have enough hand on the river to merit at least a call. Could a raise be better?
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#18
06-16-2007, 08:24 AM
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Re: 10-20 at the RIo
you haven't given us a description of the button, which is pretty important imo
any decent player would be betting the turn in his spot with the ace, so if he's decent he doesn't have the ace, but I can't see him checking a (better) Q either, therefore, a river raise would never fold out a better button hand, only worse hands or missed draws you might get PFR to fold his kings/perhaps KQ with a river raise, but mostly he'll be holding/folding lesser hands given the description you gave us, so again a raise doesn't accomplish much (how likely is he to have kings and would he even overcall KQ?) and I don't see you making the tricky player fold better hands either, but we figure he's weak anyway then again, button could be a donk, like you wrote yourself, donkeys often check through good hands, so if button does have a small ace that he checked on the turn, you might get him to fold to a river raise, that' be sweet though they might still call stupid big bets with small aces as well, but I might be a bit biased bc I usually play with huge donks that actually pull of this kind of crap, you could only give the answer to this this has been somewhat of a rant, but I'd have to conclude I don't like a river raise as played, I think it's a -EV play bc you won't fold out enough better hands, but it's all a big reading game I even forgot to mentione that you can't possibly rep a big hand, A8 is not possible, Q8 shouldn't be in your range and, not closing the action, you should have dumped p8 on the flop as well, although donkeys usually don't think much about what their opponent could/should('nt) have you'd save yourself a world of hurt if you'd just bet the turn, you're charging (lots of possible) gutshots and all sorts of other draws (important stuff) and your river decision will be much more easy sometimes, when everybody checks to you and you have pair, you could have the best hand and it could certainly be smart to bet it, I think this turn spot calls for a bet as played, don't raise river, a call is in order since the pot is big sry for the long rant, gotta go, no time to re-read
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#19
06-16-2007, 03:27 PM
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Re: 10-20 at the RIo
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I meant to ask him about this myself. How many players must he anticipate in the pot to make cold calling with QT suited profitable? [/ QUOTE ] It depends on who's behind you as well and who limped. But, in general, I play a lot of "crap" hands in multiway pots like this for a single raise. Especially with excellent relative position like in this hand. It looks like OP had a great seat at this table. Q8s, J8s, etc are all playable for me. Good multi-way hands. Besides, it's fun to play. - Jim [/ QUOTE ] This doesn't sound terribly scientific, and of course we all think the hands we play are profitable. Cold calling two bets should be a pretty rare thing, even in these types of games according to Miller. We all know the formula for small pairs, how many players need to be in, etc. There must be some sort of guideline for suited connectors, and in this case a gapped suited as to the pot odds needed to make them profitable when calling two bets preflop. I'm guessing that you are bleeding away more than you realize with some of the "crap" you cold call two bets with for fun.
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#20
06-16-2007, 03:35 PM
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Re: 10-20 at the RIo
[ QUOTE ]
Consensus seems to be that we have enough hand on the river to merit at least a call. Could a raise be better? [/ QUOTE ] This pot is pretty big, I think making a "just in case" river raise is worth it.
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