OK lets get this ball rolling (AP)

[Schneids]

Alright, lets establish a few ground rules:

1) Please no trolling in this thread. Do not post in this thread if you do not have legitimate things to add. Jokes can be saved for BBV. Don't clutter this thread, I don't want to sift through 40 posts to find one thing with substance.

2) Only substance in responses.

3) In general, only respond if you are directly effected and have played against our named list of suspected super-players (again, unless you have something to ADD that is worthwhile).

4) If you are effected, I would appreciate if you construct a similar type write up and post it here or in your own thread. What we also need to do is combine into 1 database, and do this type of thing, and to be able to get some EXACT numbers about these peoples' postflop tendencies (similar to like what Dan Druff said in the thread that got moved... "In 845 hands, PLAYERABC made what we would call river valuebets 74 times. He got called and won 74 of them. He checked behind with 34 showdownable hands that COULD be debatable valuebets, and lost 33 of them." )


MY GRAYCAT REPORT TO COME IN 5 MINUTES.

[Schneids]

In these 173 hands, only once does he call a river bet with a worse hand ( http://www.pokerhand.org/?1489653 occurring on Aug 14th, before the AP updates near the end of the month) and only once does he call a river bet with the best hand. The only time he bets the river and gets called by better is when his hand has no showdown value to begin with.

In these 173 hands, not once did he ever come close to paying me off when I flopped something good, and he checked behind when I flopped pairs quite often, unless he had my pair beat. This hand is the most money I won in a pot ever, against him (would be curious for AP to check and see what he called with; it seems most likely he has a ten in his hand, yet he doesn’t pay off river): http://www.pokerhand.org/?1489803

In these 173 hands, in only 16 of them does he lose at least $1000. Yet, he has played 67.05% of them and raised 57.23% of them. Of these 16, you would think that means he has paid off with a second best in a lot of them. However, not once has he. In the most expensive one, he lost $2400, and folded to a single river bet in a HU pot on this board (after he was the aggressor in other streets): *** [3h 6c 5s Kd] [4c]***. In his other $2400 loss, he had 5 high and 3 bet the turn against two opponents (and bet river), one of who has A5 high and the other has K9 high. The next one, -$2200, is also a pure bluff against 1 hand which does not have a pair (but called down). The next, -$2000, is tough to gather much from: http://www.pokerhand.org/?1489830 The next, -$1800, he again puts in a lot of action on the flop on a draw heavy board, and then folds for 1 bet on the river when a draw hitting card comes. I could keep going like this, but the basic point is graycat always manages to lose the minimum if he’s beat, unless his opponents themselves have marginal hands and he tries and fails to blow them out of the pot with even worse. He never loses money with second best hands.

http://www.pokerhand.org/?1489646 is not a hand that seems synonymous with someone who plays a hand like this: http://www.pokerhand.org/?1489653

Very suspect amount of action: http://www.pokerhand.org/?1489661

Very suspect postflop play unless you can see your opponent has an underpair to the board: http://www.pokerhand.org/?1489669

Questionable preflop line that lacks congruence with postflop line when you are as big of a maniac as he is. Would make sense to cap preflop if you see other’s hands and know you have live cards. Anyway, the fact he check calls flop and turn is telling that he knows he’s drawing and is no longer is going to continue with his “bluff” (most maniacs in my experience would bet this flop with their OESD): http://www.pokerhand.org/?1489674

Tough river bet for someone to make who has yet to not play every river perfectly: http://www.pokerhand.org/?1489682

Yet another strong river value raise by a guy who has never bet/raised a river and been called and lost unless he is on a bluff 5 hi bluff: http://www.pokerhand.org/?1489695

He has insanely aggressive stats, yet knows to check and call flop here with flush draw: http://www.pokerhand.org/?1489702

His only check call with the best hand (goes against cheater theory): http://www.pokerhand.org/?1489715

Made perfect postflop decisions: http://www.pokerhand.org/?1489726

Played JUST like someone who know’s his opponent’s hand: http://www.pokerhand.org/?1489735 NOTICE comparatively, he has nothing here, yet gives up on the river once he gets called on the turn: http://www.pokerhand.org/?1489744

Three-bets pf and checks flop, opponent has him beat: http://www.pokerhand.org/?1489771

Does not prove anything but it would be interesting to have AP check to see what Graycat folded: http://www.pokerhand.org/?1489778

Again would be interesting to have AP check to see what Graycat folded (also, SCHDNFRD what did you have here? IF you had a draw that got there, this is more support for graycat seeing hands and simply pounding at your draw, hoping you miss): http://www.pokerhand.org/?1489785

Don’t know what to make of this hand other than betting the flop isn’t that bad of an idea when the guy after you has 66 and the next guy has KQ: http://www.pokerhand.org/?1489793


I feel like what I have here is not enough to *prove* Graycat cheats; though, I feel like if we combined our databases and were able to find more proof of perfect postflop decision-making over a larger sample of hands, we get him. In my hands, I did not see any actual postflop *mistakes* by him -- ie, it does *feel* like he's playing with extra knowledge.

[Scary_Tiger]

Do you have timeframe for that? These are from July 15th:

STAGE #708090317: HOLDEM NORMAL $150/$300 - 2007-07-15 01:38:32 (ET)
Table: IDELA AVE (Real Money) Seat #3 is the dealer
Seat 3 - BUGSTUD ($5040 in chips)
Seat 4 - CALVINHOBBES ($28516.50 in chips)
Seat 5 - EZ2PLY ($6000 in chips)
Seat 6 - DONKOFHOLDEM ($8995 in chips)
Seat 7 - SCARY_TIGER ($8135 in chips)
Seat 1 - GRAYCAT ($2609.48 in chips)
Seat 2 - JAKETTE ($4210 in chips)
CALVINHOBBES - Posts small blind $100
EZ2PLY - Posts big blind $150
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to SCARY_TIGER [5h Ks]
DONKOFHOLDEM - Folds
SCARY_TIGER - Folds
GRAYCAT - Raises $300 to $300
JAKETTE - Folds
BUGSTUD - Raises $450 to $450
CALVINHOBBES - Folds
EZ2PLY - Folds
GRAYCAT - Raises $300 to $600
BUGSTUD - Calls $150
*** FLOP *** [10s Js 3d]
GRAYCAT - Bets $150
BUGSTUD - Calls $150
*** TURN *** [10s Js 3d] [2d]
GRAYCAT - Bets $300
BUGSTUD - Calls $300
*** RIVER *** [10s Js 3d 2d] [6d]
GRAYCAT - Checks
BUGSTUD - Bets $300
GRAYCAT - Calls $300
*** SHOW DOWN ***
BUGSTUD - Shows [8c 8h] (One pair, eights)
GRAYCAT - Mucks
BUGSTUD Collects $2945 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($2950) | Rake ($5)
Board [10s Js 3d 2d 6d]
Seat 1: GRAYCAT HI: [Mucked] [Ac Kh]
Seat 2: JAKETTE Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 3: BUGSTUD (dealer) won Total ($2945) HI$2945) with One pair, eights [8c 8h - P:8h,P:8c,B:Js,B:10s,B:6d]
Seat 4: CALVINHOBBES (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 5: EZ2PLY (big blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 6: DONKOFHOLDEM Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 7: SCARY_TIGER Folded on the POCKET CARDS

STAGE #708087121: HOLDEM NORMAL $150/$300 - 2007-07-15 01:34:04 (ET)
Table: IDELA AVE (Real Money) Seat #2 is the dealer
Seat 2 - JAKETTE ($4660 in chips)
Seat 3 - BUGSTUD ($7595 in chips)
Seat 4 - CALVINHOBBES ($26526.50 in chips)
Seat 6 - DONKOFHOLDEM ($7500 in chips)
Seat 7 - SCARY_TIGER ($8385 in chips)
Seat 1 - GRAYCAT ($2869.48 in chips)
BUGSTUD - Posts small blind $100
CALVINHOBBES - Posts big blind $150
GRAYCAT - Posts $150
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to SCARY_TIGER [7d Qc]
DONKOFHOLDEM - Raises $300 to $300
SCARY_TIGER - Folds
GRAYCAT - Calls $150
JAKETTE - Folds
BUGSTUD - Folds
CALVINHOBBES - Calls $150
*** FLOP *** [9s 2d Ac]
CALVINHOBBES - Checks
DONKOFHOLDEM - Bets $150
GRAYCAT - Raises $300 to $300
CALVINHOBBES - Folds
DONKOFHOLDEM - Raises $300 to $450
GRAYCAT - Calls $150
*** TURN *** [9s 2d Ac] [8s]
DONKOFHOLDEM - Bets $300
GRAYCAT - Calls $300
*** RIVER *** [9s 2d Ac 8s] [10h]
DONKOFHOLDEM - Bets $300
GRAYCAT - Calls $300
*** SHOW DOWN ***
DONKOFHOLDEM - Shows [Ah Qs] (One pair, aces)
GRAYCAT - Mucks
DONKOFHOLDEM Collects $3095 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($3100) | Rake ($5)
Board [9s 2d Ac 8s 10h]
Seat 1: GRAYCAT HI: [Mucked] [4c Ad]
Seat 2: JAKETTE (dealer) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 3: BUGSTUD (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 4: CALVINHOBBES (big blind) Folded on the FLOP
Seat 6: DONKOFHOLDEM won Total ($3095) HI$3095) with One pair, aces(queen kicker) [Ah Qs - P:Ah,B:Ac,P:Qs,B:10h,B:9s]
Seat 7: SCARY_TIGER Folded on the POCKET CARDS


STAGE #708091217: HOLDEM NORMAL $150/$300 - 2007-07-15 01:39:47 (ET)
Table: IDELA AVE (Real Money) Seat #5 is the dealer
Seat 5 - EZ2PLY ($14750 in chips)
Seat 6 - DONKOFHOLDEM ($8845 in chips)
Seat 7 - SCARY_TIGER ($8135 in chips)
Seat 1 - GRAYCAT ($1509.48 in chips)
Seat 2 - JAKETTE ($4210 in chips)
Seat 3 - BUGSTUD ($6635 in chips)
Seat 4 - CALVINHOBBES ($28416.50 in chips)
DONKOFHOLDEM - Posts small blind $100
SCARY_TIGER - Posts big blind $150
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to SCARY_TIGER [10c Kd]
GRAYCAT - Raises $300 to $300
JAKETTE - Folds
BUGSTUD - Folds
CALVINHOBBES - Folds
EZ2PLY - Folds
DONKOFHOLDEM - Folds
SCARY_TIGER - Calls $150
*** FLOP *** [Ks Kh Qh]
SCARY_TIGER - Checks
GRAYCAT - Bets $150
SCARY_TIGER - Raises $300 to $300
GRAYCAT - Raises $300 to $450
SCARY_TIGER - Calls $150
*** TURN *** [Ks Kh Qh] [8s]
SCARY_TIGER - Checks
GRAYCAT - Bets $300
SCARY_TIGER - Raises $600 to $600
GRAYCAT - All-In(Raise) $459.48 to $759.48
SCARY_TIGER - Calls $159.48
*** RIVER *** [Ks Kh Qh 8s] [Jc]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
GRAYCAT - Shows [Js 4s] (Two Pair, kings and jacks)
SCARY_TIGER - Shows [10c Kd] (Three of a kind, kings)
SCARY_TIGER Collects $3113.96 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($3118.96) | Rake ($5)
Board [Ks Kh Qh 8s Jc]
Seat 1: GRAYCAT HI:lost with Two Pair, kings and jacks [Js 4s - B:Ks,B:Kh,P:Js,B:Jc,B:Qh]
Seat 2: JAKETTE Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 3: BUGSTUD Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 4: CALVINHOBBES Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 5: EZ2PLY (dealer) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 6: DONKOFHOLDEM (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 7: SCARY_TIGER (big blind) won Total ($3113.96) HI$3113.96) with Three of a kind, kings [10c Kd - B:Ks,B:Kh,P:Kd,B:Qh,B:Jc]

So over the course of ten hands he called with a worse hand on the river twice and actually busted in the last hand. But yeah, I only have 10 hands on GRAYCAT at 150/300 and he dropped 10 bets. So nothing seemed suspicious the one time I played with him.

[Schneids]

8/14/07 which was 9 hands (and also the time he called my river bet with worse), and the rest on the 27th and 28th of August. A lot of these suspicions about Graycat arose around that later time period, which I believe someone was saying immediately after the latest AP update. I'm not 100% saying Graycat is guilty of anything, though I know people who think that a few of our names are actually the same person.

[The Bryce]

I would feel comfortable saying that Graycat wasn't cheating before the patch. Afterwards I have no idea. He was a huge donor and would often jam a ridiculous amount of bets when drawing dead. In the small sample I have on him he's down nearly 20k.

Sure he sometimes does schizo things like 3 bet and c/f when you flop the nuts, but if I recall he also does things like 3 bet and c/f when you have J high.

[Dan Druff]

There's no question that they are all the same person, for several reasons.

Perhaps they are in a number of different names, but it's clearly the same person behind all of the accounts. Even if it isn't just one person, it is at the very least one person in cahoots with the others.

For simplicity's sake, I think we can treat all of the suspect accounts as belonging to one guy.

[kahntrutahn]

we took 71 hands to SD since 8/23

Im down 21k to him. Riiiiiigggghhhhtttt

[emerson]

So you have a very blatant and greedy cheater. But how many more subtle and not so greedy cheaters are there? I'd guess there are many more that are not nearly as bold. How could anyone play on this site?

[GoodEats]

I was initially convinced that this was a BS conspiracy theory spun by bitter pros. After talking to other pros who played graycat, and analyzing my own hand histories with him, I am now convinced that cheating took place on AP.

I think the most likely explanation is as follows...

Graycat, DOUBLEDRAG, and Steamroller were able to see hole cards and used this ability to cheat.

(It is possible that the people behind this cheating are or were associated with the site, and that they used existing dormant accounts to cheat. That could explain severe differences in past and present records of these accounts.)

After cheating the pros, these accounts then dumped chips HU to accounts such as SUPERCARDM55, who played short sessions without cheating in order to make the accounts appear legitimate for the purposes of cashing out.

I would like to see a list of the other accounts that received the dumped chips. I saw an account named something like "PIRATE_PKR" playing DONKOFHOLDEM and calvinhobbes right after graycat, and I would like to know if this is a real player or an account related to the cheating.

In closing, it sucks that AP's negligence allowed this to happen. It also sucks that they have no motivation to admit that players were cheated. I am sure they feel that refunding the money to graycat's victims would permanently damage the reputation of the site. Still, I hope that we can make sure that the people involved in this graycat business are not allowed to keep the money. Perhaps Seifdonk should keep the money as his personal online BR; this would enable restitution in a less embarrassing manner.

-GoodEats

[stuckinpgh]

The reason I'm not convinced this was an inside job is simply why would they need to dump the chips. They could just "cash" them out with an internal transfer behind the scenes. Why blatantly move the chips from one account to the other in a huge game and hope nobody notices?

After looking over some of the same hh's that Eats saw I agree, there is definitely cheating going on with these accounts.

I haven't seen any of these accounts, has anyone else. Anyone else think it's possible that AP just confiscated the funds and closed the accounts. By not telling anyone they could a. keep the money and b. still claim nothing shady happened.

I'd say keep on the looking for an AP software update, but it updates everyday anyway.