Professional No-Limit Hold 'em Volume 1 Review Thread

[Matt Flynn]

[ QUOTE ]

So, assuming 2/3 PSB on the flop and the turn, a good SPR for a top-pair hand is 2.22.

[/ QUOTE ]


it's a decent starting point if you have no other information. once you know your opponent you can make better estimates of target SPRs.

also, the 2/3 pot bet assumption will skew SPRs down but not as much as basic arithmetic suggest. that's because opponents will call 2/3 pot bets more often, on average, than they will pot-sized bets.


[ QUOTE ]
So assuming 10-12BB pot preflop (ie standard raise sizes) with a raise and a single caller, optimal stack size is 22-27BB?

[/ QUOTE ]


optimal stack size is 22-27bb plus whatever you put in preflop.

that reasoning assumes a tight opponent or a weakish top pair hand. keep in mind that that is the OPTIMUM stack size for commitment - your target SPR - the stack size that makes you the most profit, on average, when you get all-in. you can play for considerably bigger stacks and still make a profit, but when you get all-in with bigger stacks you will face a tougher range of hands and not be ahead as often. eventually the stacks get big enough that if you get all-in you expect to lose money on average. the breakeven point is your max SPR.

the book's much easier to follow. SPR is a complicated subject and hard to present in forum posts.

[redbeard]

First off, I just wanted to thank Matt and Sunny for writing such an excellent book. I've been a limit player for the last three years. I grew tired of the grind at those games and a couple of 2p2 friends of mine have convinced me to move over to the "juicier" no limit games. As I have no background in no limit I found that there was a pretty big void in literature on the subject. About the best book I found was the nl section in Doyle Brunson's Supersystem 2. Professional NL Hold 'em blows the doors off Doyle's book for sure. I found the SPR concept of your book to be revolutionary and it totally hit the nail on the head as to areas I felt like I was struggling most. In limit, top pair hands are golden and if you never folded them you wouldn't be too far off base. But in no limit I've felt like I don't extract enough with those top pair hands and I give away too much with them when I lose. Certainly a bad combination. So I wanted to ask you what your advice would be regarding hitting the target SPRs to make the nl game much easier to play post flop. You've done a good job in this thread and the other thread linked in this one in explaining your concepts. Now to put them in practice I have one of two general guidelines I'd like to put into place and wondered what you thought of each or if you think neither would be optimal.

First off, to give some background I play mainly 100nl and 200nl 6-max games. It seems to me my two options would go something like this:

Option 1 -- buy in for 40 to 50 big blinds. Then use the "standard" online raise of pot or 3 to 5 bb for all my raising hands. Using a mix of 5bb for my top pair hands (QQ, JJ, AK, AQ, AJ, KQ), 4bb for my pair hands (22-TT), and 3 bb for suited connectors (that i want to raise) and AA, KK, and AKs.

Option 2 -- buy in for the standard 100 big blinds. then use a 10bb raise for my top pair hands (QQ, JJ, AK, AQ, AJ, KQ), a 5bb raise for the middle pair hands (22-TT) and a more standard 3bb raise for the suited connector types and AA, KK, and AKs

Obviously table conditions are going to dictate changes to these strategies, such as the aggression of opponents to three bet, the willingness of looser opponents to fold on the flop if they always defend their blinds, etc. etc. But what do you think of the idea of adopting one of these strategies as my default style of playing? And of the two which do you prefer?

[rocco1999]

What is the best way to order this book in Slovenia(Europe) and how fast will i receive it?

[dersl]

[ QUOTE ]
What is the best way to order this book in Slovenia(Europe) and how fast will i receive it?

[/ QUOTE ]

probably professionalpoker, but with huge shippment cost
check out this thread:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...n=0&page=0

[Buconero]

I think this a typo. Halfway down p158:

"With that betting line (preflop raise, half-pot bet on the flop into 2 opponents, turn check), you estimate he'll have nothing most of the time." Yet he bet $15 into an $18 pot on the flop?

[jeffnc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's not the shortstacking, it's the ratholing/hit-n-running.

[/ QUOTE ]

Short stacking is all about ratholing and hit-n-running.

The only exception is if you buy in short, double through and then change your strategy for playing a medium stack.

But if you're going to do that, then just buy in for the max in the first place.

Sure, there could be BR reasons why you'd buy in short and then stay after you doublled up. But if you're playing at a level where you're properly rolled then just buy in for the max.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I said in the SSNL thread. Why be an expert at 20BB poker if you can't continue to play that way? I've never played in a casino where you could rathole, and even if you could get away with it, who wants to keep moving around all the time? It would work online, I don't really have a gripe with anyone doing it in their underwear if that's just how they feel like playing sometimes.

[Matt Flynn]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this a typo. Halfway down p158:

"With that betting line (preflop raise, half-pot bet on the flop into 2 opponents, turn check), you estimate he'll have nothing most of the time." Yet he bet $15 into an $18 pot on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Doh! Noted. Sorry everyone for the mistake.

[binions]

[ QUOTE ]
First off, to give some background I play mainly 100nl and 200nl 6-max games. It seems to me my two options would go something like this:

Option 1 -- buy in for 40 to 50 big blinds. Then use the "standard" online raise of pot or 3 to 5 bb for all my raising hands. Using a mix of 5bb for my top pair hands (QQ, JJ, AK, AQ, AJ, KQ), 4bb for my pair hands (22-TT), and 3 bb for suited connectors (that i want to raise) and AA, KK, and AKs.

Option 2 -- buy in for the standard 100 big blinds. then use a 10bb raise for my top pair hands (QQ, JJ, AK, AQ, AJ, KQ), a 5bb raise for the middle pair hands (22-TT) and a more standard 3bb raise for the suited connector types and AA, KK, and AKs



[/ QUOTE ]

Option 3: Buy in for 100xBB and make small raises preflop with a lot of hands (2-3xxBB). In this way, your SPR will rarely be under 20 unless you get several callers or someone reraises. Then make smallish continuation/value bets on the flop (3-4xBB).

In other words, operate under the commitment threshhold radar. When you see the other player commit more than 10% of his stack, recognize that you are potentially 2 bets away from all-in, and decide if you want to play a big pot. Which will depend on how strong your hand is and how good or bad your foe is, etc.

[Matt Flynn]

Hi redbeard,

Thanks for the kind words!

Of the stratgies you propose, I far prefer buying in for 40-50bb (probably 40 would work best) and using standard raises. Raising to 10bb is too much, especially without the strategy in volume 2 on how to think about others' preflop holdings.

What intrigues me is what would happen if a positional TAG raised to 5 or 6bb every hand every hand played. The fold equity could get phenomenal early, but then opponents would play back - likely inappropriately. Somebody good might make a killing. And a 70bb stack would do well then, allowing for some set equity too. I have not done that and don't know how opponents would adjust in the 5-10 and 10-20 online games, so you may get bustoed too. If anyone does it please let me know how it works after a few thousand hands.

[redbeard]

thanks for the replies matt and binions.