ATs vs LAG

Lethe · #1 10-12-2007, 01:21 AM

Villain is very laggy. He's been winning quite a bit, and raising probably close to 50% of his hands - at least in the 1 hour I've been at the table.

He raises UTG +1, 2 callers, I call AdTd in the SB.

Flop: Qd Th 8c

I check, he bets, 2 folds

Plan?

One Outer · #2 10-12-2007, 01:24 AM

It's heads up by the time the action gets back to you, correct?

Raise. I'd donk a blank or helpful turn and calldown any further aggression from the lag unless I caught an A or T.

DeuceKicker · #3 10-12-2007, 01:27 AM

I think I would have bet the flop, hoping he'll aggro-raise his crap and chase the other two out.

As played, I'd raise and follow one outer's plan.

One Outer · #4 10-12-2007, 01:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think I would have bet the flop, hoping he'll aggro-raise his crap and chase the other two out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. I forgot that part. I'd also have bet out.

Bob T. · #5 10-12-2007, 01:36 AM

I like check calling all the way here against an aggressive opponent.

Lethe · #6 10-12-2007, 02:15 AM

When I played this hand, I decided that my best option was to just check call it down.

In consideration of the c/r idea: if he 3bets, are you still donking a "blank" turn? This seems like spewage against an opponent like this, as there is no way I can fold against him. There's also the chance that he'll just fold his garbage to my c/r when he would have gladly bet it the whole way if I play passive. Given that, do you still think playing back at him is a good idea? I guess the same goes for betting out... I can see the merit in betting and hoping he raises out the other two, but I'm not so sure about donking the turn unless it's an A or T.

One Outer · #7 10-12-2007, 02:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
In consideration of the c/r idea: if he 3bets, are you still donking a "blank" turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Really. Hmmm.

I like getting more value than that. Why are we always calling him down? Because we're ahead the majority of the time. So c/c the whole way seems to give up value.

Your 3bang question is a good one. At that point I'm calling down unless I improve. So, no I'm not donking a blank turn if I got threebet on the flop. If he just calls my flop checkraise I still like my line.

DeuceKicker · #8 10-12-2007, 03:56 AM

If it was HU on the flop and I'm OOP against an aggromonkey, I like check/calling down because it gives him the rope to hang himself. But in this case I'd rather do what I can to get it HU against someone with a very wide range. I think giving yourself that chance trumps the risk of spending an extra SB or BB.

I'd also like to make him uncomfortable from time to time, rather than let him always set the tone for the hand. I don't know how maniacal villain is, but sometimes laggros will get ego-invested in bullying you out of the hand and give you much more than a c/c line.

If he 3-bets your c/r, or raises at any time, I'd just call down. But until he raises, bet like you have the best hand.

One Outer · #9 10-12-2007, 04:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If it was HU on the flop and I'm OOP against an aggromonkey, I like check/calling down because it gives him the rope to hang himself. But in this case I'd rather do what I can to get it HU against someone with a very wide range. I think giving yourself that chance trumps the risk of spending an extra SB or BB.

I'd also like to make him uncomfortable from time to time, rather than let him always set the tone for the hand. I don't know how maniacal villain is, but sometimes laggros will get ego-invested in bullying you out of the hand and give you much more than a c/c line.

If he 3-bets your c/r, or raises at any time, I'd just call down. But until he raises, bet like you have the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree about spending the extra bet. That's why I want him to bet the flop and get raised.

I see the rationale for the c/c line against spew monkeys, especially on the big bet streets. I'm advocating maybe getting yourself more value by trying to put more bets in on the flop instead of going straight to call down mode, which I think as a standard play OOP HU against a LAG sacrifices monies.

kyzerjose · #10 10-12-2007, 08:35 AM

Isn't the OP better served by leading this flop? Normally I'd take a c/c line HU but not against 3 opponents.
If the hero checks, he risks getting pushed off his hand by a villain bet, and a raise behind. The hero can't 3 bet MPTK OOP against 3 opponents and it sure doesn't make a whole lot of sense to call two cold. Leading is the only rational line to take.
When/if the villain raises, everyone between the villain and the hero are calling two cold.
If the villain calls and it's raised by a LP opponent, the hero can either 3 bet to squeeze the villain, call with the nut BDFD or fold knowing he's playing MPTK OOP in a multiway pot.