Why is minbetting and limping in position -EV?

[asg]

Many people say that these are bad plays and only donks would do them...but, why? I don't recall ever reading a explanation...but i do recall reading unanimous agreement.


so...

why?

[RobMcB]

As a standard line, it's incorrect. Limping applies no pressure to your opponent, and really dosen't exploit the edge you receive while in position.
Minraising is rather fishy because your opponent has immediate odds to call you with any two cards, and implied odds usually through the roof.

That said, the openlimp and the minraise cannot be simply dismissed out of hand forever and ever amen. There are opponents and situations where they become acceptable, or even +EV, but as a standard line, no.

[Majik]

I don't think a lot of people say it's -EV, but more so less EV than some alternative plays. Minraising is sexy at times though and shouldn't be dismissed for post flop play.

[tmcdmck]

the minraise is awesome if they are pot comitted after calling it. i also enjoy minraising the flop to build the pot then making a big bet on the turn to take the pot away when i feel they have 2 overs/ a weak pair

[ChicagoRy]

He said minbet, not minraise.

Nothing wrong with limping in certain situations, usually it's criticized more correctly when people limp too often or limp opposed to a raise.

RobMcB - I think limping can totally maximize your edge in position, provided the stacks are correct and the player type is correct. Players that play well OOP against raises but let you limp are one example of a player that it can be better to limp against with a lot of hands.

The minbet is generally bad because there is almost always a better decision that can be made. Maybe somebody can come up with a situation where a minbet is the best option possible (In a raised pot, not a limped pot where the guy folds to minbets as often as 2/3 or 3/4 bets and u stab w a minbet). And also not with very shallow stacks as I believe OP is referring to deeper stacked situations and probably raised pots or 2 barrel minbets.

[jay_shark]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think a lot of people say it's -EV, but more so less EV than some alternative plays. Minraising is sexy at times though and shouldn't be dismissed for post flop play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with Majik here . In many instances , raising pre-flop is higher EV than limping otb . This is not to say that limping otb is negative EV ,although it may be negative EV with your very worst hands .

There is nothing wrong with being creative by occasionally limping on the button . For instance , you may decide to exploit a player who frequently raises your limps with a wide range of hands . These types of players are strong candidates for the limp re-raise play. There are other rare situations where you may decide to limp otb in position if you feel your raise may get him to fold but your limps may get him to make significant post-flop errors .

Another exploitive play is to limp otb with speculative hands if your opponent always checks his big blind . Getting 3:1 pot odds is a nice proposition with hands like 5-4 off-suit .

[bobdogbobdog]

I don't think limping otb is such a big issue. You won't be giving away much edge by limping with hands such as 10-7o or 4-5s if u limp rather than if u raise/fold. I think post flop play with these marginal hands is going to be much more of a factor is determinig yr EV and should be the focus.

[RobMcB]

[ QUOTE ]
the openlimp and the minbet/raise (small edit) cannot be simply dismissed out of hand forever and ever amen. There are opponents and situations where they become acceptable, or even +EV, but as a standard line, no.

[/ QUOTE ]

[asg]

so how do you know it's + or -EV, or Less EV than max EV for certain types of players?

for one to assume it's LESS EV than MAX EV for a player assumes that everyone plays the same...

[shat4brains]

[ QUOTE ]
so how do you know it's + or -EV, or Less EV than max EV for certain types of players?

for one to assume it's LESS EV than MAX EV for a player assumes that everyone plays the same...

[/ QUOTE ]
when you are playing a moron who doesnt fold i think it is more optimal to limp a lot and keep the pots small until u hit a big hand.