I saw the Pic Contest and didn't fold my KK,.... Now What???

[Lostit]

Villain in this hand is 32/14/3.2

Please also keep in mind that this is deep stacked. If I was only 100 BB deep, I'm calling this everyday and twice on Direct Scooter's birthday.

Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

MP: $74.35
CO: $59.05
BTN: $49.30
SB: $95.25
BB: $29.75
Hero (UTG): $98.50

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $1</font>, 3 folds, <font color="red">SB raises to $3.50</font>, BB folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $12</font>, SB calls $8.50

Flop: ($24.50) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $20</font>, <font color="red">SB raises to $83.25 and is All-In</font>, Hero?[/i]

Costs me 120 BB to call. What do you do here?

[Sean Fraley]

Your 4-bet has pretty much told villain what you have, and he then takes the course of action likely to fold any one pair hand but KK or AA (and maybe AQ). I'm pretty sure that this was someone who considered QQ to damn pretty to fold to a 4-bet and caught a lucky flop, or at worst AA or the other KK.

[Pokey]

Now you fold.

Your preflop four-bet shrinks his range severely -- you can put him on AA, KK, QQ, and AK. That's about it. Of these hands, you're ahead of AK, and that doesn't check-raise all-in on this flop. You're done; if he's got the huevos to bluff-raise all-in on this flop, he deserves to win.

Your mistake was the three-bet preflop: you set yourself up for heartache. You give away your hand and simultaneously leave enough money behind that you'll be miserable putting it all in the middle.

Better would be to smooth-call the three-bet. Then you can either call down flop-turn-river or put in a good raise if you catch a K. If an ace comes and villain two-barrels you can fold the turn. Otherwise, call on down -- you win the most when you're ahead and you lose the least when you're behind. Villain is aggro enough that you he'll value-bet himself to death against your KK.

If you were much shorter, a four-bet all-in would be a good choice. I'd advocate that with $50 stacks or less, since you get called by hands like AK and QQ. Given how deep you are, a four-bet all-in preflop is ridiculous, and if you're not getting it ALL in preflop you shouldn't be four-betting.

Oh, and as played I check behind on the flop. Why open yourself up to a bet you can't answer? You're afraid of no turn cards other than an ace, and that's as likely to scare villain than it is to harm you. You keep the pot smaller and you induce turn bluffs that are going to be more +EV to call. Your flop bet builds a gigantic pot, and your hand can't support it.

Besides, if you bet the flop and he check-raises, then what would you do? Man, that would suck, huh?

[Sean Fraley]

[ QUOTE ]
Now you fold.

Your preflop four-bet shrinks his range severely -- you can put him on AA, KK, QQ, and AK. That's about it. Of these hands, you're ahead of AK, and that doesn't check-raise all-in on this flop. You're done; if he's got the huevos to bluff-raise all-in on this flop, he deserves to win.

Your mistake was the three-bet preflop: you set yourself up for heartache. You give away your hand and simultaneously leave enough money behind that you'll be miserable putting it all in the middle.

Better would be to smooth-call the three-bet. Then you can either call down flop-turn-river or put in a good raise if you catch a K. If an ace comes and villain two-barrels you can fold the turn. Otherwise, call on down -- you win the most when you're ahead and you lose the least when you're behind. Villain is aggro enough that you he'll value-bet himself to death against your KK.

If you were much shorter, a four-bet all-in would be a good choice. I'd advocate that with $50 stacks or less, since you get called by hands like AK and QQ. Given how deep you are, a four-bet all-in preflop is ridiculous, and if you're not getting it ALL in preflop you shouldn't be four-betting.

Oh, and as played I check behind on the flop. Why open yourself up to a bet you can't answer? You're afraid of no turn cards other than an ace, and that's as likely to scare villain than it is to harm you. You keep the pot smaller and you induce turn bluffs that are going to be more +EV to call. Your flop bet builds a gigantic pot, and your hand can't support it.

Besides, if you bet the flop and he check-raises, then what would you do? Man, that would suck, huh?

[/ QUOTE ]

My response feels small and inadequate after reading this...

[whyzze]

umn..minrasie from UTG?

[Pokey]

[ QUOTE ]
umn..minrasie from UTG?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, I totally missed that. Yeah, that's BAD. Your first raise should have been to $2 or $2.50. A minraise is just ugly. Remember: raises give away information about your hand. If you're giving other people information you should be charging them an unfair price to take advantage of it. A minbet fails to accomplish that.

[Lostit]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
umn..minrasie from UTG?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, I totally missed that. Yeah, that's BAD. Your first raise should have been to $2 or $2.50. A minraise is just ugly. Remember: raises give away information about your hand. If you're giving other people information you should be charging them an unfair price to take advantage of it. A minbet fails to accomplish that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know its bad, but I was trying to think outside the box a little bit. On FTP, being the rock garden that it is, any big UTG raise (3-4 BB) gets a lot of respect. In this case, I'm not looking for respect, I'm looking for a fight.

Pokey, you said not to give too much away about your hand, and that I had defined my hand with a 4-bet. In normal stacks, is a UTG raise followed by a 4-bet when needed, not screaming the same thing and giving away your hand?

Is it just me, or does everybody else have trouble getting any action preflop when opening UTG with a standard raise?

[Lostit]

Great post Pokey, as usual.

2 questions, though,

1.) Are you advocating a smooth call preflop for anything over a buyin and 4-betting anything under a buyin, preflop, with KK?

2.) The last paragraph about checking behind, how does this not put you in a bad spot when villain leads the turn? How could I fold at that point, with no additional information on his had, if he leads a non Ace turn? Wouldn't I be forced to call and almost by default, lose more money than the line I took? I get the fact that smooth calling allows them to hand themselves. Many of my biggest wins in my PT DB are from this and I'm a big believer in it, but in this spot, I think it increases my losses on this hand as I never made the villain define his hand when I checked behind. Please explain.

Whyzze: I was experimenting to see what reaction I would get. It was an aggro table and I wanted to see if someone would try to stomp on me.

Lastly, if anyone cares, I did fold the hand. I had the same thinking as you guys, but I wanted to see if there was a consensus out there that I just folded my hand to AQ.