WPT Legends: shoving over limpers

[ZeeJustin]

As I was reading the post I was thinking "dude, don't shove. One of the limpers will call"... and then I got to the part where the first limper was in the cutoff (technically LP refers to only the CO and button, so I'm assuming he's CO. It's actually kind of crucial though).

I think it's close and depends on the players but would default to shove.

Are they limping because they don't want to commit themselves to call your shove? Or are they limping because they don't know you are "supposed to raise KJ in LP".

They are older donkish guys, which might mean the latter, so I would only shove if they are loose oldish donkeys. Usually its easy to distinguish them from the super nits that have been playing poker for eight thousand years.

[ZeeJustin]

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Curtains and Raptor, do you think shoving here is actually -EV, or that it's just too close and you're more likely to find better spots by open shoving? I mean I have a hard time seeing this as -cEV.

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It has to be more than just +cEV to shove. Mostly because calling is +ev, so we need it to be MORE +ev than calling. I generally don't wait for "better spots", and I certainly wouldn't at a table like this where a big stack might be insanely profitable.

[NYWalker]

Shoving 10BB against 2 limpers and BB seems to be standard online but may not in live. When you push, you should be prepared to get called. Live limpers don't raise LP/CO/Button never mean they wouldn't call a M=4's push from the blinds.

I'm not saying pushing is bad, but I would look at two things,
1. is there a utg/EP limper? if not, then
2. what's second limper's stack size and his image because he's the last one to act.

[raptor517]

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Curtains and Raptor, do you think shoving here is actually -EV, or that it's just too close and you're more likely to find better spots by open shoving? I mean I have a hard time seeing this as -cEV.

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well, im not sure if its variance or something, but in my limited live experience, i find that these older nitty guys limp hands like TT or KQ or AJ and stuff like that, and they most certainly dont fold when a young punk kid shoves in from the blinds. i dont ever exactly have a nitty image, so if you have that it might be ok and you will get some folds, but i actually think shoving is -ev in this spot assuming it was me in the seat. i think limping is very clearly +EV by a pretty big amount, and i would certainly do that every time. it may sound like im saying a shove is completely terrible or awful, but im not. i just dont think its +ev, and if it is, its v v v slim.

[sirio11]

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i find that these older nitty guys limp hands like TT or KQ or AJ and stuff like that, and they most certainly dont fold when a young punk kid shoves in from the blinds

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I think this is about right, and you don't need to be young, you just need to look like a punk; and if not, I'm pretty sure they'll find any reason to call in the "One thousand reasons to call" book written in their cerebellum.

[ZeeJustin]

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i find that these older nitty guys limp hands like TT or KQ or AJ

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You think the older nitty guys open limp TT from the cutoff? I don't think I've ever seen that before in a live tournament.

[ZeeJustin]

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I'm pretty sure they'll find any reason to call in the "One thousand reasons to call" book written in their cerebellum.

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Yeah, but we'll see calls from hands like JTo too. Can't neglect to factor that in (not disputing your overall point).

[betgo]

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One thing I'm not sure all online players realize is just how big the antes are. It's costing us 1575 per round in this level, and if we complete the small blind and fold postflop we'll have 5400. Also, finding spots to open shove isn't always easy either, because any good players are fighting for the antes so having it fold to you in LP is rare at this stage of the tourney IMHO. That was part of my thought process in shoving, that I really couldn't afford to pass up this spot even if our FE wasn't that great.

Anyway, I doubt there's much more to discuss here. Results: first villain took about a minute to fold, second guy tanked and went on and on reasoning out a call "needing only 40%" and then shoved it in and flipped over 98o.

My friend who started this conversation by questioning my play says there is a phenomena, especially in live play, of people inventing all sorts of reasons to make bad calls in these spots so he felt my FE was practically nonexistent. Seems he was right since villain called with 98o.

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First of all, with this stack and ante, you can profitably open push from early and mid position, so no rush.

Is getting called by 98o that bad? I think you have to push because you are probably ahead of pot odds here against the calling range. Plus live you have significant FE, despite the loose call here. The fact that it looks like you expect a call makes the push looks stronger.

[MikeMcClain]

Sigh... first time I've been called 'oldish'.

The hand was 98s, not 98o. The first limper was after three folds, so not late position. Also, I had about 40k at the time, not 18k, which would make a big difference in my decision. I needed 40% equity, and I thought I had it vs your range.

After you left, the woman in the big blind said she folded A8, and the first limper folded 77. Both said they would have called with their hands if last to act. You were fortunate to get the best matchup, but unlucky that I sucked out on you.

I'm certain my call was no worse than borderline. Feel free to label it as donkish rationalization, but I make the same call next time.

[WarDekar]

I think the push is fine and would have played it the same