donked on very scary turn by one of the best - Page 2

rzk · #11 10-13-2007, 08:35 PM

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btw, what do you think is a good capping range in this situation. i think i've been a nit since the range i gave is pretty much my capping range.

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Villain is Co and yourface OTB right?

Well yourface is 3-balling me with a [censored]. So something a LOT wider than what you mentioned.

66'ish KJs, KQo, A9s, AJo, QJs, JTs, T9s

should all enter with positive prob IMO

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i've never played with yourface, is he a complete maniac? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

but seriously, what range do you put the button on if you are willing to cap the hands you mentioned?

yourface · #12 10-13-2007, 08:39 PM

I know villain is opening a wide range from the CO, prob around 30-35% of hands, so I'm def going to be 3betting him with a lot of hands including stuff like A6s 9Ts QJo and he knows that

capping some of those hands oink mentioned wouldn't necessarily be for value, but they would help balance a hand range that is usually very top heavy (big PPs, big aces). this is useful vs a thinking player who can read hands because it leads to spots where you can make profitable bluffs semibluffs and value bets when villain isn't considering those hands in your range

Oink · #13 10-13-2007, 08:40 PM

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btw, what do you think is a good capping range in this situation. i think i've been a nit since the range i gave is pretty much my capping range.

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Villain is Co and yourface OTB right?

Well yourface is 3-balling me with a [censored]. So something a LOT wider than what you mentioned.

66'ish KJs, KQo, A9s, AJo, QJs, JTs, T9s

should all enter with positive prob IMO

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i've never played with yourface, is he a complete maniac? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

but seriously, what range do you put the button on if you are willing to cap the hands you mentioned?

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First: I wouldnt cap all those hands 100%.

But about 44, A5s, A8o, K8s, KTo, QTs, QJo, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s

Not all of them with 100% prob.

Edit: These are the same hands approx that I would 3-bet with. I dont play with yourface but from sweating him it looks like we play disturbingly alike

vmacosta · #14 10-13-2007, 08:44 PM

uhhh, do you guys read poker books? The pf stuff Oink's talking about is well covered in Stox's book and both of Barry Tannenbaum's new books (pretty good books, imo).

yourface, you already know I call down always here, but this donk looks a lot like you're totally screwd. I mean, what kind of expert player's gonna think you're capable of laying JJ down here? I guess I could see j9s/t9s, but they should be badly discounted due to pf/flop action.

yourface · #15 10-13-2007, 08:48 PM

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what kind of expert player's gonna think you're capable of laying JJ down here?

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he knows my hand range is all pairs and that people don't like to fold pairs but I know he knows that and he knows that I know that he knows that I know that he kno

rzk · #16 10-13-2007, 08:50 PM

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I know villain is opening a wide range from the CO, prob around 30-35% of hands, so I'm def going to be 3betting him with a lot of hands including stuff like A6s 9Ts QJo and he knows that

capping some of those hands oink mentioned wouldn't necessarily be for value, but they would help balance a hand range that is usually very top heavy (big PPs, big aces). this is useful vs a thinking player who can read hands because it leads to spots where you can make profitable bluffs semibluffs and value bets when villain isn't considering those hands in your range

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based on the hands you gave it looks like your 3-betting range is around 17%. against this range, hands like KQo, A9s etc. have around 45-46% equity. is the deception value really worth this huge equity disadvantage with us co being oop?

btw, i also don't understand why you would 3-bet otb this wide. i usually just follow stox's advice to 3-bet hands that have 49-50% equity against the raiser. hands like T9s,QJo,KTo certainly have less than that. do you believe the advice in WITHG is too simplistic?

Oink · #17 10-13-2007, 08:55 PM

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is the deception value really worth this huge equity disadvantage with us co being oop?

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Two words

F
E

EDIT:

Capping is "free" since he cant 5-bet so all I need is my eq + FE to be 50%

Also metagame matters as does being OOP. In position I'd cap looser

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do you believe the advice in WITHG is too simplistic?

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To be honest yes.

rzk · #18 10-13-2007, 08:56 PM

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uhhh, do you guys read poker books? The pf stuff Oink's talking about is well covered in Stox's book

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i haven't read barry's book yet but read WITHG (see my post above).

rzk · #19 10-13-2007, 09:01 PM

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do you believe the advice in WITHG is too simplistic?

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To be honest yes.

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i think you are a better poker player than i am so i can't contradict you on that. but if co is, for example, Heis, he has said several times that he follows stox pretty closely.

Oink · #20 10-13-2007, 09:15 PM

not when he plays me.

Not that I play him very often but I remember getting 3-bet with 86s and JTs.

I also remember him to be pretty aggro preflop. (and good)

Stox book is advocating a TAG style. And thats fine.

I just think its too tight and leaves money on the table. In particular with 3-betting situations.

Other books covering this topic and other coaching vids seem to 3-bet looser than Stox