So I'm either learning...or becoming a luckbox (spec. thx to Fiksdal)

Sherman · #1 08-22-2007, 10:37 PM

So Fiksdal said he quit. That made me very sad. He was one of my favorite posters in MTTs and one of the people I looked to for advice when I started playing cash games last month.

Anyhow, I found out that he had a video. So I watched it. And I think I learned something. Raising PF against players you are better than postflop is extraordinarily effective.

So today, I thought I might try a new strategy (my old TAG strategy was getting me slaughtered). I decided that I would raise every single hand that was folded or limped to me in the CO or Button. I would also raise every SB in BvB.

I only played for an hour or so, and two tabled, but I learned some things. As for stats, I was 31/28 over 215 hands. Much laggier than my normal 19/16 or so.

Anyhow, I learned that if you have a crazy ass image, you get called really light and people always think you are FOS. So I thought I would post a few fun examples:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com

SB ($9.46)
BB ($3.08)
UTG ($5.62)
MP ($5.32)
CO ($4.27)
Hero ($9.58)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.2, SB calls $0.18, BB calls $0.15.

Flop: ($0.60) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets $0.6, BB raises to $2, Hero raises to $1.9, SB folds, BB calls $0.88 (All-In).

Turn: ($5.98) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($5.98) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $5.98

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (5 handed) internettexasholdem.com

BB ($3)
UTG ($3.75)
MP ($9.99)
Hero ($4.97)
SB ($1.41)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.08, SB calls $0.07, BB raises to $0.14, Hero calls $0.06, SB calls $0.06.

Flop: ($0.42) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets $0.44, Hero calls $0.44, SB folds.

Turn: ($1.30) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets $2.42 (All-In), Hero calls $2.42.

River: ($6.14) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $6.14

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (5 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Button ($19.26)
SB ($5.15)
BB ($4.25)
UTG ($4.25)
Hero ($13.02)

Preflop: Hero is MP with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.2, 1 fold, SB calls $0.18, 1 fold.

Flop: ($0.45) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $0.15, Hero raises to $0.6, SB calls $0.45.

Turn: ($1.65) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1, SB calls $1.

River: ($3.65) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $11.22 (All-In), SB calls $3.35 (All-In).

Final Pot: $18.22

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (4 handed) internettexasholdem.com

BB ($3.25)
UTG ($4.02)
Hero ($12.47)
SB ($6.14)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.2, 1 fold, BB calls $0.15.

Flop: ($0.42) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.35, BB calls $0.35.

Turn: ($1.12) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($1.12) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets $0.3, Hero raises to $1, BB calls $0.70.

Final Pot: $3.12

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com

CO ($4.67)
Button ($4.10)
SB ($3.92)
BB ($4)
Hero ($12.77)
MP ($5.82)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero raises to $0.2, 3 folds, SB calls $0.18, BB calls $0.15.

Flop: ($0.60) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $0.5, SB calls $0.50, BB folds.

Turn: ($1.60) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.9, SB calls $0.90.

River: ($3.40) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $0.05, Hero raises to $11.17, SB calls $2.27 (All-In).

Final Pot: $16.89

So maybe I ran really lucky (and I no doubt ran well). But I also realized a few other things:

1) I was ALWAYS in control of the size of the pot. When I wanted a big pot, I got one because people were constantly calling me down light. When I wanted a small pot, I got one.

2) People rarely 3-bet me.

3) People got very irritated and tilted off chips to me.

4) People did not pay attention to my position...I played quite exploitable. Simply 3-betting any LP raise I made or limp/re-raising destroyed my game plan. Also, any raise I made from MP, UTG, or the BB meant a very strong hand. Yet people assumed I was raising the same garbage from any position.

5) I really expected this strategy to be marginally successful at such low limits because there is so little FE PF. However, it was much more successful than I expected because I gained so much value post-flop against the same calling stations.

Anyhow, I'm not saying it is optimal strategy to raise everytime it is limped or open folded to you in LP. And I'm certainly not a cash game expert.

Just stating that I think I learned something today, and I have Fiksdal to thank for it.

Lastly, if there are any comments on the hands above, I'm all ears. And if the post is really stupid...well it's fine to let me know that too.

Sherman

Arcturus · #2 08-22-2007, 10:48 PM

I read an article in Bluff magazine a couple of months ago from Mike Caro. He mentioned how he would show up at live tables against unknowns and just act ridiculous in order to loosen people up and get them off their games. At one point, I think, he mentioned how sometimes he would light a $100 bill on fire in front of people so that they would think he had no care about money and then proceeded to play like a donk for an hour. This in turn produced greater winnings when he finally started to play seriously because of his "loose" image.

I think if you have excellent postflop skills, this is definitely a way to go in order to increase profits. People DO get ticked off when you consistantly try to raise and take their money. They will not play their normal game.

Unfortunately, I'm not at that skill level yet, but maybe someday. Anyway, it seems like it is working for you. Good job! [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

marvin_1935 · #3 08-22-2007, 10:49 PM

hands 1,2 and 4 are pretty bad. you ran really hot over a small sample size. players at this level are not observant enough for you to have an image.

[ QUOTE ]
(my old TAG strategy was getting me slaughtered).

[/ QUOTE ]

this is varience or you have major leaks

kaz2107 · #4 08-22-2007, 11:48 PM

i would consider raising all hands that fold to SB and he limps into u when u r bb. much more +EV then raising all times it folds to u in the sb. position, position, position

Kasane · #5 08-22-2007, 11:50 PM

Welcome to the wonderful world of smart lag play. Sure, some of these were sub-optimal, but overall it shows you the power of the style.

Now, bring it down to earth a little bit and be aware of how your opponents adjust = profit.

I'd say anyone who wants to boost their game should experiment like this -- might be the most important part of this post.

Try everything at least once -- passive, lag, super lag, tag, and whatnot. You'll pick up a thing or two from each.

corsakh · #6 08-22-2007, 11:54 PM

Mr Caro does not need to portray much.

Sherman · #7 08-23-2007, 03:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
hands 1,2 and 4 are pretty bad. you ran really hot over a small sample size. players at this level are not observant enough for you to have an image.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really would appreciate comments on what was wrong with 1,2, & 4. In #2, I fully expected him to lead that flop w/air (two high cards) given my image and check/fold the turn. Of course I was lucky to hit trips.

I very much disagree about the image thing. Many players were irritated that I kept raising so much.

RE: My TAG style.

[ QUOTE ]
this is varience or you have major leaks

[/ QUOTE ]

Possible. I doubt I have major leaks, but I am a much better player when I can get more value out of hands like two pair. When I was running TAG (19/16) at 25NL (granted only like 1K hands) it seemed that I could never get any value out of my big hands, and found myself paying off too much on ugly river cards. Playing this way today completely changed that for me (granted only 200+ hands and at a lower limit) as players ran more bluffs against me (probably figuring I always had air) so check/calling bad rivers was more profitable and I could make more thin value bets on the river b/c I could expect to get called light.

Anyhow, if nothing else, at least it made the game fun and put me in spots where I really had to pay attention to my opponents.

Thanks for the feedback.

Sherman

Sherman · #8 08-23-2007, 03:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
i would consider raising all hands that fold to SB and he limps into u when u r bb. much more +EV then raising all times it folds to u in the sb. position, position, position

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. I should have mentioned it, but I did this too obv. But at these limits, it was rarely folded to the SB.

Khaos4k · #9 08-23-2007, 03:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Mr Caro does not need to portray much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, the man is batshit insane.

C4LL4W4Y · #10 08-23-2007, 04:18 AM

hand 2, the flop call is pretty bad. other than that, for the sake of loosening up in late position, it's ok. i'll warn you though, at the stakes you're playing this probably isn't the most profitable style.