$40/$80 free showdown raise spot?

[drbk2]

I hate the free showdown raise as much as anyone else, but how is it against a pretty good player (or someone I perceive to be a pretty good player) who is used to being the most aggressive guy at the table? Here is the spot. The villain is James Van Alstyne I think, the guy who plays a lot of tournies and I think made a final table at a WPT event last year. $40/$80 at the Borgata. He hasn't really done much at the table so far and has only played a couple of orbits. I've been playing pretty snug but have been talking at the table quite a bit since I knew a lot of the players and may appear to be looser than normal.

I raise black 9's in middle early position. Small blind moron calls, James Van Alstyne is the big blind and calls. I yell "6!" for no reason.

Flop: J 6 2 two diamonds. Checked to me and I bet. Small blind folds and the big blind raises. I call.

Turn: Th. He bets. I do what?

[emerson]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate the free showdown raise as much as anyone else, but how is it against a pretty good player (or someone I perceive to be a pretty good player) who is used to being the most aggressive guy at the table? Here is the spot. The villain is James Van Alstyne I think, the guy who plays a lot of tournies and I think made a final table at a WPT event last year. $40/$80 at the Borgata. He hasn't really done much at the table so far and has only played a couple of orbits. I've been playing pretty snug but have been talking at the table quite a bit since I knew a lot of the players and may appear to be looser than normal.

I raise black 9's in middle early position. Small blind moron calls, James Van Alstyne is the big blind and calls. I yell "6!" for no reason.

Flop: J 6 2 two diamonds. Checked to me and I bet. Small blind folds and the big blind raises. I call.

Turn: Th. He bets. I do what?

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Either way is okay. The main thing is to stick to the decision that you are putting in only two more bets. YOu can either call the turn and river, or you can raise for the free showdown on the turn. The draw back to the free showdown is that you have to fold if he three bets you or if he donks the river. After he 3 bets the flop and leads the turn you can't afford to put in three big bets to go to showdown on hands like this.

I don't like the free showdown here because you don't have that many outs to improve and capatilize on the opportunity to win three bets by betting the river. He is not folding to the turn raise if he really has something. And if he has nothing you would rather he bluff the river.

I prefer the free showdown with middle pair combined with an open end or flush draw. This is especially true when you have something like A8 off, with a pair of eights, and a third card suited to your ace hits on the turn. It has a high probability of working because it looks like you might already have the flush.

[drbk2]

I hate the freeshowdown raise in your example because you could be 3 bet when you have to call.

[*TT*]

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Turn: Th. He bets. I do what?

[/ QUOTE ]

I had an interesting experience with James even though we never played Hold'em together. He sat on my left in the WSOP Razz tourny this year. James is very agg and likes to test his opponents. If this was Razz every time I raised in similar situations he folded, and more than once I'd see him re-raise with what looks like a strong board only to fold to a 4-bet.

what does this mean in relation to your hand? not much, but just enough to consider a riskier line considering your pre-flop comment.

PS: 40/80 for James sounds low, he usually plays black chip and higher, maybe that wasnt him?

[vmacosta]

This is a bad spot for a fsdr. If he's agro he can 3-bet tons of big draws and the only hands he folds are hands with 5 or less outs. I would save the fsdr stuff for when you're the one with the draw (and a weak made hand to boot) or when there is not many draws possible.

[ProfessorBen]

Free showdown raises are usually good when(in rough order of importance):

1. You can safely fold to a 3-bet.
2. You can get villain to fold a better hand.
3. You are drawing to few outs against the hands in villain's range you are behind.
4. Villain's range includes hands that you are still ahead of which have enough outs that are worth charging.
5. The pot is large.
6. Lots of rivers are "scare cards" for your hand.
7. Villain is unlikely to donk the river if he makes his hand.

This situation meets some of these conditions (#3, 4, 5, 6) so I think this is a decent spot to raise for a free showdown. That said, I feel like this turn card could give villain a lot of monster-esque draws that he may be willing to 3-bet semibluff or a pair of T's to go along with his draw that he will call down. Given what others have said about James, I think this may not be the opponent to try this against.

Brian, what was your plan on the flop? Are you calling down most turn/river combos? Folding aces and 3rd diamonds? Taking a WA/WB line? You weren't planning to raise for a free showdown on most blanks were you?

[ProfessorBen]

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I hate the freeshowdown raise in your example because you could be 3 bet when you have to call.

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Also you lose your implied odds on the river and end up charging yourself more when you are behind. Raising for a free showdown is terrible in that example.

[jkamowitz]

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I hate the freeshowdown raise in your example because you could be 3 bet when you have to call.

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Agreed, there was a really good thread about this a long time ago. A good free showdown raise would've been in DJEric1's A8o on QJ8x board. Where if you get 3-bet it's easy.

[ssmallz]

call and call a non ace river

[blindside]

i probably would not go for a fsd here unless he's the type who won't bluff the river after he misses a flush...

i think if you change your hand to 44,55 it would be better for a fsd but probably a better fold as well...