6/12 Live: I flop the wheel from the BB

[jesse8888]

Usual donkish mix of 6/12 players. Here has 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] from the BB. 5 players limp and hero checks:

A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Hero bets, two call. EP caller is horrible, playing ATC pf and calling down with just about any piece. MP caller is pretty bad, but plays only maybe 50% of his hands pf (I haven't seen him really show down much of anything yet). EP caller called quickly. MP caller was in great pain, but finally peeled out 3 chips.

A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Hero bets, EP caller calls quickly, MP caller again looks a bit constipated and calls.

A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Hero bets, EP caller calls quickly, MP caller raises. Hero (???)

Questions:

Given how I've played so far, do I raise the river or just call him?

Does anyone play the flop or turn differently? No specific reads on the preflop callers, but most of them were weak/passive and loose.

[DeuceKicker]

Bump! (the pot, not the thread)

[jesse8888]

My thoughts on the river:

1. If I raise, even a player as terrible as EP is going to fold. If I call, he may well just chuck in 6 chips.

2. MP could have a boat. OOP I can't imagine him slow playing through the turn, but in position with the idiot between us, it could be the right thing to do. Most likely, he just has a jack.

3. If MP has a jack and I raise back, I'm getting one more bet. If he has a house, I'm probably losing 2, but possibly only one.

[One Outer]

Reads would be nice, but not really necessary, I suppose.

Whole hand is gravy if you threebumped the river.

[One Outer]

[ QUOTE ]

1. If I raise, even a player as terrible as EP is going to fold. If I call, he may well just chuck in 6 chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

So? Same number of bets as if you just went for the overcall, and if you don't raise there is NO chance he'll call two more.

[Lucky_River]

I don't think that he has the f.h. with 2 pair he would raise the Turn a J is likly. But I think a call is good we will get ep as an Overcaller and MP isn't able to cap if he played something slow on the Turn. So we get the same amout as 3betting and ep falls, with no possibility of getting caped.

[OziBattler]

[ QUOTE ]
MP caller was in great pain

[/ QUOTE ]

jesse, in your opinion was this a real tell or a fake tell?

Im kinda torn on this hand. part of me says take the overcall from EP and the other part says he is not going to give us credit for a flopped str8 so he could be raising with trips. As far as expecting him to raise the turn with 2pair....well I only play online but i see bad players slowplay big hands til the river even when it would APPEAR obvious to everyone else that they should raisy daisy the turn. I can only imagine that live players are just as bad/worse and can easily not raise 2pr in this spot on the turn.

I'd probably just call although my inner LAG says 3 jack it ..... but he is a bad boy and causes me to spew chips in bad spots so Ill stick with a call [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

he probably had J3/J5, amirite?

[mongidig]

I think you are ahead here. Assuming MP was not acting, he probably has a hand like KsJc. This is the type of hand a loose bad player will peel the flop with thinking you may not have the Ace in which case he may have outs to beat you. Once you bet the turn again he pauses because now it is more likely you have the Ace but now he has a Jack so he must stay in. Of course on the river he thinks he hit the Jackpot. The other terrible player could have any piece of the flop and just be calling down.

If you raise, the terrible player may call you if he has an Ace but probably won't with any other holding and may not even with the Ace.

If this were heads up I would reraise the MP but in this situation I think going for the overcall is not a bad play since the terrible player will probably call and you might possibly be beat.

[jesse8888]

I thought it was a real tell on the flop. When he did it again on the turn, the thought that it might be fake entered my brain. When he raised me on the river, the doubt was just enough to make me call, reasoning I could collect an over call as compensation. Heads up I pop him back every single time.

Result: EP mucked even though I just called (he said he had a 3. No joke. A single 3), and MP slow rolled a J. I said "you're gonna need more than that", to which he responded by opening his 9. I collect 12 dollars too little [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[James.]

if you're getting overlay from MP i think we need to 3bet. if he has a fullhouse it sucks, but will be uncommon. even retards don't usually slowplay on super drawy boards.