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  #11  
Old 11-13-2007, 08:54 PM
Bakes Bakes is offline
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Default Re: Borgata $5K: Every Live Tell There Is In One Hand

generally bad live players dont' raise to less than 3x, or at least that is my limited experience. maybe it means strength this time? who knows but it kinda strikes me as odd for someones first hand raising at the table.
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  #12  
Old 11-13-2007, 09:05 PM
Stumpy Stumpy is offline
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Default Re: Borgata $5K: Every Live Tell There Is In One Hand

My live experience is very limited, and lower stakes...
But I would say a bad live player in LP with a marginal hand is more likely to raise bigger with it, to discourage calls.

If he did raise smaller (weak) wouldn't you assume the reason was so he could fold to pressure and not lose much?
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  #13  
Old 11-13-2007, 09:08 PM
Bakes Bakes is offline
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Default Re: Borgata $5K: Every Live Tell There Is In One Hand

yeah, my initial read was one of weakness, thats what i meant by my first post.
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  #14  
Old 11-13-2007, 11:49 PM
Todd Terry Todd Terry is offline
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Default Re: Borgata $5K: Every Live Tell There Is In One Hand

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
600/1200/100. Villain has about 50K, I have 38K. Villain got moved to the table a little while ago, no reads. Villain makes it 3K from the hijack, I raise to 9K on the button with JJ, planning to call a shove.

Villain asks for a chip count from me, then says, "I'm not going to call, I have to decide if I'm going to fold or shove." Minutes go by with him sitting there, then he shoves. I say, "If you have aces, that was quite an impressive performance, sir." I then look at him for a while, he stares back at me, drumming his fingers on the table. He then says, "If you're taking this long to decide, you should muck." A few minutes go by, he then calls the clock on me.

My read: this guy is intentionally throwing off every reverse tell in the book because he has AA, I'm fairly sure I would fold KK here. Agreed?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a big part of the reason I prefer not to speak or engage people during hands, just because I don't want some peripheral BS to screw with my decision...I don't think any of the information you gained with your statement or from his helps clarify the situation, and I'm actually inclined to think, based on all the aspects of the hand that you described, that he could easily have AK or AQs and might want a fold. I'm obviously never [censored] folding KK here...also, if you chose to fold JJ, I hope it wasn't faceup.

[/ QUOTE ]

At the time I said something, I was already 95% sure I was going to fold based on: (1) the time he took to shove -- it wasn't a complex decision, LP raise, button reraise -- and I generally think that a wait way too long followed by a shove is almost always the nuts (as a matter of logic since if the wait is much longer than the time required to make a decision it means at least part of the wait was staged, and in my experience it seems to be the case as well); and (2) his statement that he wasn't going to call and needed to decide whether to shove or fold, which just seemed completely phony to me, why would anyone ever say that out loud and actually mean it? Why would you announce that you have a tough decision when someone else is yet to act? (Although I have seen DN say it on TV, but that's just his think out loud style of play). This guy had played 1 or 2 other hands and had not ever spoken before.

If I'm last to act and someone is all in and seems willing to engage in conversation, I'll do it hoping to pick up something useful (and to keep my cross-examination skills sharp for my inevitable return to practicing law after going bust), but I'll rarely rely on what is said.

The "If you haven't already called, you should muck" statement means nothing, I've seen it said by weak and strong players, it's easy to do in either situation. The hand motion was deliberate, which was further confirmation that the guy was acting, but it was a weak piece of information. The calling the clock I've seen done by people who are weak and strong, so I don't think it adds much to the mix. Looking directly at a person is a useless tell since everyone's read Caro's book. The whole package, added to the first two things which happened before I said anything, pointed in the same direction as the first two things -- this is a guy pretending to be weak who is strong as hell.

Bet sizes: People often mimic the open raise size of the person at the table doing the most preflop raising, at this table it was me (always 2.5x) or Bodog Ari. Bodog Ari always made the same goofy sized rainbow raise (like 2275 in the previous level), and an older guy at the table starting using the same goofy sized opening raise as Ari, and continued mimicing his opening raise size at the next level as well.
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  #15  
Old 11-14-2007, 02:13 AM
kypreanus kypreanus is offline
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Default Re: Borgata $5K: Every Live Tell There Is In One Hand

What if he the ALL-in Guy has AK and doesn't want to gamble?
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  #16  
Old 11-14-2007, 02:46 PM
durrrr durrrr is offline
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Default Re: Borgata $5K: Every Live Tell There Is In One Hand

... call
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  #17  
Old 11-14-2007, 03:23 PM
Bakes Bakes is offline
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Default Re: Borgata $5K: Every Live Tell There Is In One Hand

Todd Terry = new school NYWalker imo
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  #18  
Old 11-14-2007, 03:34 PM
Todd Terry Todd Terry is offline
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Default Re: Borgata $5K: Every Live Tell There Is In One Hand

[ QUOTE ]
Todd Terry = new school NYWalker imo

[/ QUOTE ]

What does that mean?
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  #19  
Old 11-16-2007, 06:22 PM
Stumpy Stumpy is offline
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Default Re: Borgata $5K: Every Live Tell There Is In One Hand

It means you actually pick up on tons of little live tells / nuances while people like Bakes are busy practicing their steely-eyed gaze for the camera.

NYWalker will post things like how a guy broke his chips one hand vs. a previous hand, etc.
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  #20  
Old 11-16-2007, 07:45 PM
NYWalker NYWalker is offline
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Default Re: Borgata $5K: Every Live Tell There Is In One Hand

[ QUOTE ]

He then says, "If you're taking this long to decide, you should muck." A few minutes go by, he then calls the clock on me.


[/ QUOTE ]

I would read this as weakness - he doesn't want to get called. If I guess his range, I would say - TT,AQ,AK.

Last week at FW 1K single table satellite, 3-handed, I raised the button with AJs (I had 65K, BB had 25K). BB thought for a long time and said he had a bad feeling about his hand then folded AT face up. Later, he told me the way I put in my chips indicated a big hand. Yes, I was actually ready to call a shove when making the raise.
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