WPT Five Diamond - Trips w/ A Kicker, Monochrome Flop vs. Shaniac

[Ian J]

[ QUOTE ]
I know we have TPTK on the flop and thats great and all, but Shane is firing into a bunch of players on a coordinated board, we're fairly deep, OOP, and with no redraw.

I basically just want to fold flop. Anyone else think so to?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

[fslexcduck]

i just can't for the life of me imagine what would inspire you to check/raise this turn.

it changes nothing except giving you more outs against the hands he's usually value betting here.

[MauriceSch]

i fold the flop. If i had called flop, i would also only call turn. Raising doesn't accomplish useful stuff imo. As played, Crycall river i guess.

[Bond18]

Oh also,

Shaniac calls absolutely zero worse hands in his range on the turn, so calling the river shove is a spew. It also makes me think the turn CR is quite bad since it's turned your hand with a ton of SD value into a bluff.

[Clayton]

this is exactly the same as the psyduck v. zeejustin hand and a common leak i am seeing.

namely, the misunderstanding of the value of a hand versus the relative value of a hand with handreading.

i dont understand how, with simple handreading, one can see that turn OOP versus shaniac and think "GIN!" and aim to checkraise, when in reality there are very few hands we are valuestacking shane with (9x) and a lot of random hands like one pair one heart which either check behind on the turn or fire with the intentions of a free showdown (ie not calling turn cr).

[Todd Terry]

On the Internet, I fold the flop and never, ever c/r the turn.

My reason for doing both was that I picked up what I thought was a very valuable read -- Shane looked at his cards after the flop hit and before the action was getting to him, which means it was a legitimate check of his cards, not a staged check of the cards when he knew everyone was looking at him. A legitimate card check means he did not have a flush, set, or two pair, which means I have the best hand on the flop and the turn.

Now, given that read (which I thought was rock solid at the time, but I'm always within a hand willing to reconsider a live tell in light of the subsequent action), what do you think he has in light of the way the hand played out? How do you play the turn and the river? Or, if you disagree with the read, how come? Thanks.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
I basically just want to fold flop. Anyone else think so to?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would snap fold online but this card checking thing would often have me thinking 'big heart' enough to peel here. Leak? (edit: this was written before reading the last post, heh)

[fslexcduck]

i recheck my cards usually twice per hand. no matter what the hand is and even though i usually remember them with the suits and everything. just so i don't do anything stupid.

it doesn't change the fact that if he's betting pretty big (and he is) in what was a multiway limped pot, he's betting hands that beat you for the most part, and if he isn't, he isn't calling this big a check/raise, because your hand now looks like a flush or a boat. you're actually overrepresenting your hand when you check/raise like this... i guess you could be semibluffing him off of the 6 high flush with a 10 outer, but other than that, this is really nothing more than spew.

[NYWalker]

[ QUOTE ]

My reason for doing both was that I picked up what I thought was a very valuable read -- Shane looked at his cards after the flop hit and before the action was getting to him, which means it was a legitimate check of his cards, not a staged check of the cards when he knew everyone was looking at him. A legitimate card check means he did not have a flush, set, or two pair, which means I have the best hand on the flop and the turn.



Now, given that read (which I thought was rock solid at the time, but I'm always within a hand willing to reconsider a live tell in light of the subsequent action), what do you think he has in light of the way the hand played out? How do you play the turn and the river? Or, if you disagree with the read, how come? Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think, when flopped a set, nut straight, nut flush, most players don't need to check hole cards on the flop to confirm.

When people read their hole cards the first time, they remember big hands, sc and pairs, like AA/AKs/AQo, 67s, 22 or 44... They seldom confirm these hole cards on the flop because they know what kinds of flops they are looking for when come into the pot preflop.

Again, when people have Ax suited, they normally remember the exact suite. If they flop the nut flush, they rarely need to confirm that on the flop, instead, they pay a lot of attention to everyone else's action and then decide how to play the hand.

However, when players have hands like Ax offsuite (x < T), T9o, J8o, etc...they don't remember the exact suite of each card (because they never expect flop flush with these hands), they normally play such hands with postion, from the blinds or for other reasons. But they do need to check hole cards on the flop if they think the flop is connected to the hole cards. For example, when someone has Ace 5 offsuite,normally, they don't remember as Ace daimond 5 of spade, instead, they just remember they have a red Ace and black 5. When the flop comes all red, they normally have to look their hole cards and confirm if they have the same suited Ace for nut flush draw or not.

This is general reading. There are exceptions like when somone plays big pot against multiple players, or when the player looked tired (say 2am at night) or he was checking his iPod or moving his drink bottle when he was dealt or was turning around talking to someone at another table..., back from bathroom just caught the hole cards before muck...etc...


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BTW, being the big blinds of the last hand before the break, I call it "pre-bathroom hand", is the worst one to play when there are large antes and blinds.

[shaniac]

I could be checking my cards as a reverse-tell, too, right?