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  #31  
Old 10-29-2007, 12:40 PM
zizazziza zizazziza is offline
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Default Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board

In your equation, arent you pretty much getting it AI pf when there is JJ and TT in the hand anyways (or at least a decent amount). Also, I think the same with AK. I mean im not saying its a terrible play, I just dont think that it pays off enough to make limping effective early in an mtt (unless its a very aggressive table).
I think you can make std raise and by ok, I was just saying that you COULD raise to 5-6xbb and get a call early bc ppl are that bad.
Also, you say that you get optimal result when people have huge hands that they might not be getting away from pf. The real question is whether or not you think the table is good enough for ppl to get away from JJ/TT/AK pf early in an mtt.
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  #32  
Old 10-29-2007, 12:45 PM
adanthar adanthar is offline
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Default Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board

[ QUOTE ]
In tournaments, I call. (your weak turn bet would see a lot of loose shoves from draw+pair or combo draws, villain didn't put you on KK)

In cash games, I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

meh this is reversed IMO...nobody bluffs here in donkaments but that bet in a cash game is such a bluff inducer
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  #33  
Old 10-29-2007, 04:22 PM
ASPoker8 ASPoker8 is offline
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Default Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In tournaments, I call. (your weak turn bet would see a lot of loose shoves from draw+pair or combo draws, villain didn't put you on KK)

In cash games, I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

meh this is reversed IMO...nobody bluffs here in donkaments but that bet in a cash game is such a bluff inducer

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah this logic seemed really odd, still awaiting his explanation, though
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  #34  
Old 10-29-2007, 04:51 PM
Luxoris Luxoris is offline
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Default Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In tournaments, I call. (your weak turn bet would see a lot of loose shoves from draw+pair or combo draws, villain didn't put you on KK)

In cash games, I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

meh this is reversed IMO...nobody bluffs here in donkaments but that bet in a cash game is such a bluff inducer

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah this logic seemed really odd, still awaiting his explanation, though

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume his logic is more based on taking somewhat more risk in tourneys to accumulate, because you won't get as many opportunities as the blinds get higher.
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  #35  
Old 10-29-2007, 05:16 PM
NYWalker NYWalker is offline
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Default Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In tournaments, I call. (your weak turn bet would see a lot of loose shoves from draw+pair or combo draws, villain didn't put you on KK)

In cash games, I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

meh this is reversed IMO...nobody bluffs here in donkaments but that bet in a cash game is such a bluff inducer

[/ QUOTE ]

Alright, let me explain, it's not necessarily what I think it should be right, but what I think from observations (or "experience").

Just for tournaments vs cash games, since I play live games in LA area, I encounter more "live donks" than most posters here. (Ironically, most things I discussed here, I discuss with live players, they almost always give me the opposite thinking vs online pros. That's why is very interesting to be in the middle. They say me "crazy and aggressive", you say me tight,nit, retard... I have no problem taking any titles as long as I can win pots from each group.) Basically, people are loose in tournaments and are super tight in cash games. In another word, most cash players soldem bluff $4K in cash games. (Yes, there are retards do that once they control a tight/weak table with big stacks in cash games) But in tournaments, players only lose a buy-in, they do a lot semi-bluffs, sometimes bad bluffs. From ourside, calling $3500 all-in with one pair on that scared board in cash game is very risky unless you have very reliable read ($4000 cash on the line in one hand). This sounds silly, but most cash players (ok, let's call them "donkey live players") do think this way - I only put in $650, let's not lose entire stack, pick another spot. Some may fold AA here. Live donks or whatever, that's the fact how they play and think. But when they come along and push,... they have it.

Tournament plays focus on building the stack, cash games focus on protecting bankroll, reducing risks...

========================
Talking about this hand, OP didn't give any read about the villain, which is important. PF limping is OK if OP thinks villain is LAG and tried to trap him (KK limp is bad IMO), but when OP bets $350 at the turn, what's the purpose of this bet? Trying to induce a bluff or build the pot in an "unsure way" - meaning not sure about his hand and will fold to a push?
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  #36  
Old 10-29-2007, 05:19 PM
adanthar adanthar is offline
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Default Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board

walker, this is a live vs. online thing again. people are not bluffing here online in a big tournament because it's full of horrible sat qualifiers that will never ever fold an overpair. hence, you should. conversely, live, people are famous for folding too much, hence, vs. a good player underbetting to induce a bluff is the nuts.
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  #37  
Old 10-29-2007, 05:31 PM
NYWalker NYWalker is offline
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Default Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board

[ QUOTE ]
vs. a good player underbetting to induce a bluff is the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand that from my plays online.

But in this hand, OP underbet $350 on the turn (assume he intended to do so to induce bluff), then villain's shove is a bluff? Where is the argument? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] With other reads, in tournaments, I call the shove. But in cash games, I can't. Aren't we on the same page? Or I'm confused?

=========================
OP,
You knew you were inducing a bluff? or you just picking up a comfortable number of $350 to bet on the turn and had no idea what to do about villain's shove?

Edit: from your posts, it appears you approach to the game with very strong mathematic analysis, which I like. But, if you put some reads into consideration, it's more powerful.
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  #38  
Old 10-29-2007, 08:28 PM
0evg0 0evg0 is offline
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Default Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board

BALTOSTAR,

when YOU limp, what ARE your plans for the rest of preflop? would it be RIDICULOUS to say that you didn't have one AND WHEN people limped behind YOUR call, you realized how [censored] you were? his MOM might have something to say about his attitude, but listen to what gobbo SAID to YOU. if i WERE you, THE best thing you could do is to listen to the SMARTEST donkamenters (lol) who dispense knowledge to less fortunates like you everyday. BOY, you'd think you were IN THE know or something the way you manage to use 9 letters on a word when 3 will do. but trust me, it's the most pathetic thing in the WORLD.

IT WAS A JOKE.
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  #39  
Old 10-30-2007, 12:48 AM
baltostar baltostar is offline
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Default Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board

[ QUOTE ]
BALTOSTAR,

when YOU limp, what ARE your plans for the rest of preflop? would it be RIDICULOUS to say that you didn't have one AND WHEN people limped behind YOUR call, you realized how [censored] you were? his MOM might have something to say about his attitude, but listen to what gobbo SAID to YOU. if i WERE you, THE best thing you could do is to listen to the SMARTEST donkamenters (lol) who dispense knowledge to less fortunates like you everyday. BOY, you'd think you were IN THE know or something the way you manage to use 9 letters on a word when 3 will do. but trust me, it's the most pathetic thing in the WORLD.

IT WAS A JOKE.

[/ QUOTE ]

May I suggest you add some fiber to your diet? Also: less dairy.
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  #40  
Old 10-30-2007, 01:19 AM
baltostar baltostar is offline
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Default Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board

[ QUOTE ]
OP,
You knew you were inducing a bluff? or you just picking up a comfortable number of $350 to bet on the turn and had no idea what to do about villain's shove?

Edit: from your posts, it appears you approach to the game with very strong mathematic analysis, which I like. But, if you put some reads into consideration, it's more powerful.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had no reads pre-flop. It's pretty early and I hadn't seen anyone make any gross mistakes.

When I limp big PP in EP it is not one of my goals to play post-flop with a bunch of limpers. If that happens, then I reduce my reasonable expectation for the hand way down.

With 5 opponents in the flop it's extremely likely that at least one player hit something they would want to play. The healthy flop bet was mainly to force out marginal hands like unpaired Ax that might benefit from a turn card.

On the turn, I felt it was still murky as to whether I had the best hand. The lead-out was to avoid giving a free card and to keep the pot size down (which can work if villain is also unsure if ahead/behind).

I knew 1/2 pot might look like I was on a draw, but I didn't see any really good way to play the turn. If you check, you give a freebie to draws, and you cede pot control to hands you're behind. Seems like people are saying I should have bet more ?

I wasn't trying to induce a bluff raise but given the board I knew one was possible. I was kinda surprised it was a shove.
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