Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To

[BaldElephant]

I'm confused... Were the robbers armed? Or, did they attack him?

If not, I can't imagine any reasonable defense.

[ElSapo]

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Newspapers (some at least, I've only read a couple) are reporting it as "Move and your dead" .... I dunno.

I'm curious to hear how more people feel. I just can't get behind the absolute assertion that the guy was wrong. And I really don't think this is a strong case for gun control, or at least, not as strong as some people seem to think.

The guy realy sounds to me like he felt he didn't have a choice - he felt duty-bound to try and stop the thieves. He may well be an idiot, and he may really have been wrong. But I listen to the tape and it's just not so simple for me.

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Do you really think the neighbor's VCR was worth the lives of two men? This guy did. He thought about it, the 911 operator urged him repeatedly to cool down, and then he decided that yes, he should kill (or run a very high risk of killing) two people to save his neighbor's stuff. That's evil and depraved. Valuing consumer electronics over people's lives is exactly the sort of thing we need to be locking people up for.

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For the record, I mostly agree with you. I'm just not so sure it's s clear as you make it out to be.

Hypothetically, if he went out there to stop these guys and they lunged at him, as his lawyer says, what happens then? While he should have avoided the situation to begin with, that situation may have been legally created/entered.

[James Boston]

ElSapo-

I guess my biggest issue here is that he seemed very aware of what he was walking into and what the likely outcome would be. My opinion would probably be different if he had made some type of gut reaction to grab his gun and attempt to stop a robery in progress, but he didn't. His first thought was to call the police. Then, after being told to stay inside and being told the police were coming, he decided to take matters into his own hands. We can't know if he had already made up his mind about shooting the men as he left his house. I feel like we do know 2 things though:

1) His safety wasn't really his top priority, or he wouldn't have gone outside.
2) He can't fully claim that he was the only one in a position to stop the act, given that he was told the police were almost there.

I guess my whole point is that he tried to stop them because he wanted to, not because he had to or needed to. Knowing he was entering into a situation that he acknowledged would likely merit self defense, and taking it upon himself to do so, doesn't seem reasonable or seem like a valid defense.

[El Diablo]

Sapo,

You make some good points. I have mixed feelings about this case. It's definitely possible that his intent was to hold them under gunpoint once he went outside, but then things got very frantic in the heat of the moment and he panicked, quite possibly feeling some threat.

It seems unlikely that unarmed men would run towards him in that situation. But maybe they were running away through his yard already.

On the one hand, he put himself in this situation. On the other hand, he may have actually felt a real threat once he was in the situation. But I dunno, the call just makes me feel like he's pretty ready to just kill the guys.

Tough for me to come down strongly on one side or the other without knowing what exactly happened in the few seconds outside. Sounds like there were some words spoken before "Move and you're dead" but from the timing, it really doesn't sound like there was any warning, it was pretty much "Move and you're dead" BANG.

One thing to consider is that while in this case it seems like they were criminals, it seems pretty easy for friends pulling a prank on someone to get shot in a situation like this.

[ImsaKidd]

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Valuing consumer electronics over people's lives is exactly the sort of thing we need to be locking people up for.

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I disagree here.

I hate to be racist or value one person over another, but these 2 burglars arent exactly model citizens. They are a leech on society, and they are certainly going to rob someone else. Who knows if they are armed, and if they will harm someone else while robbing them?

I really can't blame someone for killing 2 thieves.

[ElSapo]

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I guess my whole point is that he tried to stop them because he wanted to, not because he had to or needed to. Knowing he was entering into a situation that he acknowledged would likely merit self defense, and taking it upon himself to do so, doesn't seem reasonable or seem like a valid defense.

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I think this is really important. There's a very strong argument that he created the situation himself. Now, you can also argue that that's complete BS - two thieves with criminal backgrounds created the situation.

But I actually agree with you, that essentially he put himself in a situation that very likely could lead to a need for violence. (Or even an unnecessary, kneejerk, nervous violent reaction)

I don't know how this will play out of course. I guess it just doesn't seem so clear to me. No, money and posessions are not worth someone's life. But I also understand the feeling that you should do something, to not feel helpless, to not want to sit there and wait while the police are still on the way.

Ugly situation.

[HiBaCHi]

he also said something about if it had been the other neighbors that he knew very well he would have already been out there.

i think when he made the decision to go outside the chances of killing them was way higher than not killing them.

[James Boston]

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I really can't blame someone for killing 2 thieves.

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Then do you think if the police had caught them, and they were found guilty of felony larceny, they should get the death penalty?

[James282]

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Valuing consumer electronics over people's lives is exactly the sort of thing we need to be locking people up for.

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I disagree here.

I hate to be racist or value one person over another, but these 2 burglars arent exactly model citizens. They are a leech on society, and they are certainly going to rob someone else. Who knows if they are armed, and if they will harm someone else while robbing them?

I really can't blame someone for killing 2 thieves.

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What if the neighbor that he barely knew had wronged them criminally first? What if the guy actually knew these two guys, and was giving them his old vcr? What if these guys were delivery guys from circuit city who were coming to pick up a defective item?

There are reasons why we have laws against people taking the law into their own hands.

Also, if your 12 year old son stole a Playboy from a convenience store, and some other customer saw him and shot him, would you feel similarly that the death penatly was appropriate?

Just let the law sort it out, and down with [censored] idiots sentencing people to death for B&E on someone else's house.

James

[Boris]

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ElSapo-

I don't know...

How do you claim self defense in a potential life threatening situation that you voluntarily entered? If his personal safety was really his top priority, he would have stayed inside.

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so what you're saying is that if a hot chick wears a short skirt and a tube top and then walks around East Palo Alto at night, it's not rape if she gets raped.