river play

[PartyPaul]

BB is a 44/13/1.2 player.

Cryptologic
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
4 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4.5SB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

Turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4.25BB, 2 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

River: J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6.25BB, 2 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises</font>, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to BB.

Results:
Final pot: 8.25BB

Since the only hands I can beat are a pair of nines and pocket pairs, I think I should check on this river.

And then the fold. I don't think my opponent is a tricky player. So after this check-raise, I'm pretty sure he has at least trips. Although the pot is big (I'm getting 9¼:1), I think I can safely fold her.

[Absolution]

I'm not sure if this is a raise pre-flop. I probably wouldn't. It is probably close.

Don't raise the flop. Every time you go to raise, ask yourself what it accomplishes.

You have top pair with no kicker on a draw heavy board against a guy who is definitely aggressive. He is betting in a spot where he shouldn't. Why would he bet on a flop that is likely to hit you? He is either bluffing, has a draw, has a smaller pair or has a better hand that you are probably drawing thin against. Why would you raise here? The only thing that raising does is get him to pay too much with his draw, gets him to fold his bluffs or gets you 3-bet by a better hand (or check-raised on a later street.)

Your options, as I see it, are to:

1) Call down.
2) Call the flop and raise any safe turn. That is a safe turn.

I think either line is fine here. With such a weak kicker, I might prefer 1 in this situation.

The river is interesting. The way you played it makes the fold easy. I wonder if you should be betting here though against a guy with that aggression level. Going back to the range I originally stated:

1) He wasn't bluffing.
2) He had a draw. His draw missed so he isn't going to call, but might bluff raise.
3) He had a smaller pair. I don't think he's calling on the river with anything smaller than a 9. Let's assume the worst hand he calls with is a pair of 9s. He might bluff that river though. If he has jacks you're getting raised.
4) He had an ace. You chop or lose against every ace in the deck.
5) He had a better hand. He was slowplaying a bigger hand. I think that's unlikely.

So, you can only expect to get called here by the occasional pair of 9s, but everything else folds or check-raises you. This seems like a clear check to me.

[TheHip41]

i fold PF

I check that river. You are tied or losing too often when your opponent puts money in the pot.

[PartyPaul]

According to my pre-flop hand chart you can raise A5o+ from CO. It is a close one.

I wasn't expecting any comments on my flop play, but I do see your point now. Thanks for your extensive analysis.

Suppose instead of a pair of aces I had a top pair of jacks on the flop (for instance 57J rainbow, with a J4 hand). Would a call on the flop still be the best option, or is a raise then better to protect against overcards? Probably the same analysis still applies, since overcards are not that much different from a straight draw, so calling is best?

[Oink]

PartyPaul

Preflop charts are nice for starting players. If you want to improve your game you accept that preflop charts suck!


Neither Absolution nor TheHip or anybody else can tell you what to do with A5o in the CO without knowing the dynamics of the game and knowing the types of button and SB.


A few factors you should consider before you raise.

- rake. The 2/4 game at Crypto is very rake heavy. This means you should play less hands.

- Players behind you.
First of all: How likely is it you will end up in a multiway pot OOP. That is; how likely is it button will coldcall
Second: How likely is it that you win the blinds outright?
Third: How good are the players behind you.
4'th: How is your image

If you often end up OOP multiway or OOP vs a 3-bettor with this hand you should tighten up
If you often win the blinds outright or win them with a c-bet on the flop you need to loosen up
If the players behind you are bad you should loosen up. Its a misconception among many that if the blinds are bad loose passive then you should tighten up. WRONG! Loosen up.
If your image is strong or tight you should loosen up. If your image is crazy and bad you should tighten up.


BTW I am always playing this preflop in my games. But the rake is substantially lower there. In the last 300k hands I am a big winner with medium off suited Ax in the CO when opening. For me its a raise and its not even close.

[Robin Foolz]

paul

i don't hate calling this river just this once. but i understand you're prolly toast here. however, i'd like to get a feel on how this guy plays. note that you also chop with a lot of Ax hands.

[milesdyson]

you shouldn't be betting the river, though.

i also never raise postflop in this hand. call three times see what he has. thats how i roll? trying to get my AF to be exactly 1

[Romulet]

I don't mind the pf at all 4 handed, if you don't put pressure on the blinds here when are you going to do it A6o A7o ATo?
The river here is a tricky one.You split with a lot of aces here so dont be so quick to throw in the towel.
Say I have A2 in the BB I always raise this river as I think I'm splitting the pot. You may get a rag ace to fold stealing the lot. I always bet and raise when I think i'm spliting, it's a nice earner.
Having said that he probably has a jack but hey ho!

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
Say I have A2 in the BB I always raise this river as I think I'm splitting the pot. You may get a rag ace to fold stealing the lot. I always bet and raise when I think i'm spliting, it's a nice earner.

[/ QUOTE ]
1. no one folds an ace
2. aj aq ak

[mute]

Easy fold, but don't bet.