Theory: Problems with good draws on flops

[DavidC]

I have problems when I flop an OESD or FF in a 6-7 way flop, say something like A85 2tn or maybe J85 2tn. I find that it's really hard to get the flop capped 5-6 ways.

I don't like capping it 4-ways to find out that I'm breaking even at 25% equity with my FF vs a set. I don't like capping it 4-ways to find out that I'm drawing to either 13% (splitting an OESD vs a set) or 16.4% (splitting oesd vs an overpair).

People will do something like call a bet, or maybe even called two cold bets, and then fold when the second set of 2 cold bets comes back to them, even though the pot is now larger than the first time when they called two cold bets.

Obviously all this folding opens up different types of opportunities for us: maybe setting up multi-street multiway bluffs (doubtful) but more likely setting up opportunities to clean up outs (although what sorts of outs are cleaned up against such strength is probably limited to backdoor straight draws and flush draws... and those are a lot weaker than normal against such strength... and I've never really been pleased with the treatment of BDS's by Miller).

Anyways, if anyone has any comments on this, please feel free to discuss it here.

[Goodnews]

I assume FF is four flush?

Breaking even in equity edge is something you should like. There are worse positions to be in. It is impossible to fold out a set on the flop (exceptions to this obv). When you say its hard to get the flop capped 5-6 ways, thats really just a matter of knowing your opponents and whether or not they will continue to call in the face of an increasing probability that their overcard(s) are basically dead. In fact breaking even in equity is trivial because it is essentially EV neutral, and it doesn't matter if you pumped it or not. Obviously this particular EV-neutral proposition will be even more useful if you are in position to take a free card (ie set decides to c/r the turn).

As for capping it 4 way, to find out you are short on equity or breaking even only to find out someone else has the same draw shouldn't really concern you. Yea, every now and again you end up splitting a pot and find out that the EV of capping that particular flop is -1BB. You will however make that up in later streets when you connect your draw, or save a bet when you miss.

In fact the whole situation above is such a minor thing to look at, it is not even worth trying to improve (we go back to the example of two players, one plays their marginal hands badly but plays his royal flush to perfection, the other plays his marginal hands pretty well but plays his royal flush very badly, who makes more money?).

Regarding the opportunities that we gain (ie multiway multi street bluffs) are far and few in between. I don't ever expect to fold out any strong draws or monster hands. As for cleaning up outs, given the situation you described, there is really only one situation that we have to consider and thats the situation where you have a FF draw where one card is an overcard to your villain's overpair. Depending on your kicker, you may want to clean up outs (ie K9o on a monotone rag board, and trying to fold out KT+, but does not applie to AK or KQ on a monotone board, unless you have reason to believe that you are reverse dominated).

Overall, I can see where you are coming from, but overall there should be a feeling of indifference when it comes to EV neutral situations.