Cleaning up free outs/free showdown plays

[gameoverjc]

I am normally a sslhe player who would occasionally takes shots at higher mslhe. I know the two games in question are completely different, but I am an avid reader of this forum, so wondering on these two plays are std at higher limits (trying to incorporate more tools in my game to be able to move up).

Cleaning up outs:

1 limper ep, mp raises (just sat down), 2 calls to me, I 3 bet otb with 6-7 diamonds, blinds + everyone call.

Flop: 10-8-A rainbow. checked to raiser, he fires, folds between, I call, blinds both call.

Turn: 5 clubs. Raiser bets, I raise...

Is this ok for cleaning up outs in a game where people like to chase redraws? I fold out the club draws (I had a read that blind picked up redraw) or is this too aggressive?




Free showdown:

2 ep limpers, i raise ep KK, 3 calls behind (jesus), bb calls, ep calls.

Flop: 10-8-2

weak aggro player in bb bets, ep calls, ep2 raises, i 3 bet, called in 2-3 spots around and ep2 caps, i call (knowing he has top 2).

Turn: Q

checks to ep2 who bets, i raise...


Is this std to see river for free + bet if 2/q/k comes getting better than 5 to 1? Does this also clean out my outs as now 2-Q may help/instead of hurt me? I was also planning on folding to 3 bet assuming J-9 stuck around.



Any comments would be extremely appreciated! (pokerbob/joker/ben/anyone please!)

[DeuceKicker]

Hand 1: Why raise preflop?

I don't like the turn raise. What outs are you trying to clean up? Anyone with a club draw (I assume there are now two clubs on board) is never folding. Since you don't even have a good pair draw, you're not cleaning up anyone but someone who will have a worse hand if you make yours.

[gameoverjc]

ty, thought it was too aggressive esp for size of pot. was thinking 2 bb back to blinds was too big to call. had skewed thinking on that one.

[n.s.]

1) I dunno about PF. There are some good arguments for the 3-bet here, but I think if you are taking a shot it's best to go the low-variance route and sacrifice whatever tiny EV you might get from the 3-bet. The turn raise is pretty bad - as 2kicker said, there aren't really any outs that you can clean up, because a flush draw is never folding and you are very unlikely to win this by catching one pair. You are basically just charging the flush draw and yourself and giving the extra money to the PFR.

2) I dunno about this one. Cleaning up outs here is also a little dubious because getting someone to fold a Q or 2 only gives you an extra 2 outs each, and they might call anyways since they already called 3 cold on the flop. On the other hand, the pot is absolutely enormous and anything you can do to improve your chances can't be that wrong. But then again, because the pot is so big it would suck if you got 3-bet by a set and folded your 2-outer (which you will actually have odds to draw to at that point). So I dunno.