Taking my free cards so I can fold after I improve

[sweetjazz]

Full ring 20/40 game. Just recently sat down, but both SB and BB in this hand seem like typical full ring tight players. I have no idea how good they are postflop.

I open A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] OTB, SB 3-bets, and BB caps. I call, as does SB.

Flop is 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB checks, BB checks, I check.

Turn is 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB checks, BB checks, I check.

River is A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB checks, BB bets, I...fold.

Yes/no?

[ggbman]

Jesus no.

[private joker]

WTF?

EDIT: OK, I mean hand reading would tell me that BB would be capping a pretty damn good hand here, meaning a decent PP or a big ace.

So if he checks the turn, that pretty much rules out a big PP, and betting the river A puts him at a hand like AK/AQ/AJ that beats us, and you'd rather have hit the T than the A.

That said, you're getting 7:1. Just call. SB whiffed, forget about him and his paltry KQ. A good % of the time you'll see Ax or JJ. He could also be using the diamond as a scare card.

[sweetjazz]

My thought is that this is textbook weak tight AK/AQ. I thought that given this is a full ring game, this was a (close) fold.

Basically we are parlaying that he capped preflop without a big pair or a big A, that he then checked twice when he had a chance to try to fold out the other hands, and then having made no effort to steal the pot on flop or turn made a stab at the pot, he's going to try to use an A as a scare card.

More realistically, we have to be concerned that he capped with a worse A and is now value betting it. Maybe a T is too good of a kicker to fold here, but it seems close to me.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Full ring 20/40 game. Just recently sat down, but both SB and BB in this hand seem like typical full ring tight players. I have no idea how good they are postflop.

I open A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] OTB, SB 3-bets, and BB caps. I call, as does SB.

Flop is 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB checks, BB checks, I check.

Turn is 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB checks, BB checks, I check.

River is A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB checks, BB bets, I...fold.

Yes/no?

[/ QUOTE ]

What were you hoping to flop?

Anyone with anything isn't checking it twice.
Bet the turn. (I might've even bet the flop when checked to. If called, bet the turn.)

Since you didn't, call the river.

b

[PokerBob]

if by "yes" you mean "no", then i think "yes".

[Moneyline]

I would bet the turn. Your opponents are showing weakness by checking twice, and you may take down the pot or as a consolation prize clean up some outs by taking a shot at the pot now.

Just my opinion...

[drbk2]

[ QUOTE ]
My thought is that this is textbook weak tight AK/AQ. I thought that given this is a full ring game, this was a (close) fold.

Basically we are parlaying that he capped preflop without a big pair or a big A, that he then checked twice when he had a chance to try to fold out the other hands, and then having made no effort to steal the pot on flop or turn made a stab at the pot, he's going to try to use an A as a scare card.

More realistically, we have to be concerned that he capped with a worse A and is now value betting it. Maybe a T is too good of a kicker to fold here, but it seems close to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are thinking this, then you should have never called the cap preflop.

[Nate tha\\\' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Full ring 20/40 game. Just recently sat down, but both SB and BB in this hand seem like typical full ring tight players. I have no idea how good they are postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't the postflop action sort of categorically exclude your opponents as good postflop players? I can understand the SB raising a bit light and then giving up, but there's no hand that the BB could have here that he would have played well given this action.

[sweetjazz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Full ring 20/40 game. Just recently sat down, but both SB and BB in this hand seem like typical full ring tight players. I have no idea how good they are postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't the postflop action sort of categorically exclude your opponents as good postflop players? I can understand the SB raising a bit light and then giving up, but there's no hand that the BB could have here that he would have played well given this action.

[/ QUOTE ]

What I meant was that I had not seen them play postflop to this point, so I had no read before the hand began as to the preflop play.

I don't think playing AK or AQs this way is good poker, but it's not that uncommon in full ring games.

It is possible that he had a junkish hand (e.g. JTs) that he got frisky with preflop, then decided he couldn't steal the pot so he just checked, but decided to make a play at the pot when the scare card hit the river. It is also possible that he got frisky with a hand like A9s or AT and checked through until the river where he made a value bet. Maybe he terribly botched a slowplay of KK and bets the river for who knows what reason.

FWIW, I would fold ATo in this spot, so I think my preflop call with ATs is thin but correct. I also might take a pair of aces to showdown given different action.

In my judgment we are definitely losing this pot most of the time, but I do admit that it is rather dubious to fold given that the pot is laying 7:1. I suppose the possibility that he thought to himself on the river, "Hey I capped preflop, one of the players already checked, the A is a scary card, so I should bet" with a hand worse than mine is too great to fold here.

That said, there are weak-tight players against him who I could find a fold here, but I suppose the read has to be much more developed than the "feel" read I used in this hand.