I hate this spot

[n.s.]

[ QUOTE ]
but really, i'd just fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my first thought as well.

[Coelacanth]

Add one more vote for check-call flop. In most cases I'm calling this one all the way down unimproved. I might fold a K/Q/spade river. K/Q because it hits a good portion of the range you're ahead of on the flop, and the spade because most players are less likely to bet river without an ace or better when the spade gets there. Obviously at least the spade part is player dependent and image dependent on how often you c/r draws on the flop.

I wouldn't mind donking blank turns if you can fold comfortably to a raise and have a reasonable chance of folding 7 out hands (over + gutshot). I don't do this myself often, but it's worth considering.

I've got no problem calling preflop against all but the tightest players.

[ QUOTE ]
Why should we donk the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

bet the flop (sorry - but I never liked the term "donk") to represent an ace. force the option of folding upon him, and do so cheaply because we're OOP with a very marginal hand. Without an ace, there are still many reasonable hands with which villain calls a flop bet and folds to a turn bet UI, including a bigger jack...

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
I call in the BB with JhTs...

... we have middle pair but aren't doing too well against any sane range from villain.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you see why these things do not go together? Why are you calling preflop if this is your attitude about pairing your high card?

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why should we donk the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

bet the flop (sorry - but I never liked the term "donk") to represent an ace. force the option of folding upon him, and do so cheaply because we're OOP with a very marginal hand. Without an ace, there are still many reasonable hands with which villain calls a flop bet and folds to a turn bet UI, including a bigger jack...

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry but betting the flop is pointless. he's going to play perfectly against your bet. if you check/call he is going to keep firing worse made hands and bluffs, there is NO reason to bet.

also lol at him folding a better jack

[ QUOTE ]
if you check/call he is going to keep firing worse made hands and bluffs, there is NO reason to bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I think he's value betting way more often than bluffing here. What's worse, he could value bet with QQ, KK, KJ, and QJ - all hands that he might fold if you lead out on the flop and turn. If you just call down and lose to one of these hands, you've just become the new table fish.

Leading out also prevents him from drawing out for free when you're ahead, which would be disastrous.

Check/raising flop is like stepping on the gas and closing your eyes while crossing a busy intersection...

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
I think anything but check-calling this flop (barring a super-nit read on opponent) is a bust.

I don't see why check-call, check-call, check-tankforanhourand makeadecision isn't right here.

[/ QUOTE ]

because it is right.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
Leading out also prevents him from drawing out for free when you're ahead, which would be disastrous.


[/ QUOTE ]

LOL at saying it would be "disastrous" to be outdrawn in a 4SB pot.

[elena_elphie]

I would have been happy pairing my high card if there wasn't an A on board as well, that's what complicates things. Maybe folding is better preflop though, I think its close, and playing marginal hands OOP against decent opponents is no fun.

[elena_elphie]

I did check-call the flop, whenever I check call down against decent players I feel like a calling station /fish, so I'm trying to get over that. There are spots where it is clearly the right thing to do, and check-calling some marginal hands on the flop also balances sometimes chk-call, chk-raising.