Call this down? San Jose 20/40

[cgrohman]

This i snot a hand I raise pre-flop after 4 limpers but that is just me.

[jfk]

I'd give this check raise more credit because it is from out of position in a crowded field. As such, in this game, I'd tend to fold here. I think the worst hand you'll see here is AQ or KQ. The flush draw muddies up your redraw possibilities (if behind) if you elect to call here.

The case for calling is that many solid players would play a set a little faster on the flop here due to the two clubs hitting on the flop. The pot is big enough to justify a turn call if you really don't know where you stand, but you should be able to fold the river safely unimproved (despite the huge pot).

Though you didn't ask about the preflop play, I would tend to put QJs below my threshold for raising. In this game, very straightforward play can/will get the money. Plus there a lot of players in this game who'll limp AQ or AK so you can really get stuck in tough hand reading spots when you make these plays and see downstream action. The preflop raise isn't a bad play but it is probably unnecessary because you won't ever be in want of action in this game so it pays to tighten up your standards.

[Vehn]

Calling preflop is giving money away.

I would fold turn as played most of the time depending on image.

[tessarji]

Let's not get in a preflop war about this hand - but I think at a loose table a raise is nearly mandatory.

I think you should call the turn, but not overcall the river unless you improve.

[Diana Ross Fan]

why? Does he have a big equity edge pf here or does he want to thin the field?

[Diana Ross Fan]

I think you can fold here OP. It looks like the turn caller is on a draw here, which takes away some of your outs. It doesn't seem likely that he would use a c/r to bluff in a multiway pot.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't seem likely that he would use a c/r to bluff in a multiway pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure he expected the cold-caller.

[jfk]

[ QUOTE ]
why? Does he have a big equity edge pf here or does he want to thin the field?

[/ QUOTE ]

The advantages of a raise include;
building a pot with great implied odds,
being able to tie on other hands if you flop well,
deception and balance,
it earns you the button.
you'll flop a pair or better about a third of the time,
you'll flop a flush draw just over 10% of the time
flop a straight draw ______% of the time (I'm embarrassed to say I don't know this figure).

The disadvantages include;
You may be at a preflop equity disadvantage,
some chance of domination,
flush draw is to the non-nut flush,
there are two overcards to the hand (and in this game very few are folding an unimproved ace on the flop in a pot this big).

Vehn (whose opinions I value) says that not raising is costing money. I'd be curious to know how much and how to do the calculation. I'm also curious to know how many limpers it takes to make the raise automatic and how low down the food chain to go. Many players think this raise to be automatic with JTs. My own cutoff is KJs or maybe A8s.

The stox book has an example of a preflop limp reraise with QJs and I believe King Yao has QJs as a raise in this scenario.

Please excuse the hijack, but I'm not sure I've ever read a thorough (convincing) account of appropriate considerations for the line in the sand on these types of moves.

[Coelacanth]

I'm surprised at the people who don't like preflop. I raise this preflop every time in this situation. One, you've almost certainly got an equity advantage over the field in a game that has 4 limpers to you. (Also, it's the Garden City 20/40, meaning just about everyone is terrible) Two, you can buy the button. Three, you've got a good player in the BB - give him a shot to fold. Four, if you can't raise QJs here, what can you raise? I think it's terrible for you if opponents can narrow your range in situations like this to only huge pairs and big aces. I raise a much larger range here which I think works well for me personally, but QJs should be automatic for just about anyone.

Caveat: I don't know Hank, at least not by name. I would not ever fold the turn. I've been known to 3-bet for free showdown on occasion, but I don't like to do that in situations like this without a good read on the guy. Call the turn. I'd probably overcall the river as well if it's one bet to me. I think you're beat often here, but if Hank's any good he can also show up here with worse hands than yours because he wants to clean up outs in a big pot. How about QT/Q9? Q5s/Q6s? 86s/85s? If nothing else, you've got all sorts of tainted outs that might be good.

[jfk]

[ QUOTE ]
...you've almost certainly got an equity advantage over the field in a game that has 4 limpers to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just pokerstoved this. Against 6 "random" hands (four limpers and the blinds in the Op's example) )the Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] is comes in at about 23%. When you tighten the criteria where the first two limpers are playing TT-22, ATs-A2s, K8s+, QTs+ QTo+, then the equity dips to 19.7%. (Note: I'm not good with pokerstove, especially while multitabling at 3am, and was struggling with inputs. The range could/should well be wider, including the non-suited Ax hands.) Also, it isn't rare for AK-AJ to get limped in that game which hasn't been taken into account. I don't know how much "random" skews the numbers down but it appears that QJs fairs pretty well in my primitive simulation.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 16.728% 15.45% 01.28% 618551 51189.12 { TT-22, ATs-A2s, K8s+, QTs+, QTo+ }
Hand 1: 16.747% 15.48% 01.27% 619784 50729.95 { TT-22, ATs-A2s, K8s+, QTs+, QTo+ }
Hand 2: 11.710% 10.84% 00.87% 434037 34784.62 { random }
Hand 3: 11.703% 10.83% 00.87% 433630 34918.79 { random }
Hand 4: 19.672% 17.85% 01.82% 714789 72846.45 { QhJh }
Hand 5: 11.714% 10.84% 00.87% 434052 34965.04 { random }
Hand 6: 11.726% 10.86% 00.87% 434636 34839.04 { random }