Two Live 4-8 Hands, Covering All The Bases on Bad River Play

[VegasNoob]

First off, I figure I owe an intro of sorts, long time lurker, but (as can be seen) almost non existent poster. Figure this forum is probably one of those, the more you put into it the more you get out of it things, therefore I'd better try to post some hands for discussion. Here are two and as indicated my focus is on the river play although obviously comments on all streets are welcome.

The game is live 4-8 at a Vegas locals oriented casino (Station fwiw). It's a game I play regularly and I've played w/ many of the other people described in these hands, so I have at least some semblance of reads.

Hand 1, Villan # 1 is BB. I've not played with him much, but from what I have seen he has definite maniacal tendancies. I've only been at the table from a few hands, but from what I gather from the time I have been seated plus watching the table while waiting he played in a wild game the night before, won big and has won some big pots this session as well. He has about 3 racks worth in front of him. Second player in hand (not really villan) is in CO and is typical LP older guy post flop calling station. Villan 2 is OTB. I've played many times with Villan #2, he is extremely loose pf and somewhat aggressive after. Typically will not raise draws, but will raise much less than nuts (e.g. two pair on board w/straights and/or flushes). Also sticks with hands too long post flop, hates to give up on draws. Hero is UTG+1 w/55.

Preflop, UTG calls, Hero calls, CO calls, Villan 2 calls, SB completes, BB checks, Pot = 6 SB.

Flop comes 5h, black 9, Jh. SB checks, Villan 1 bets, UTG calls, hero raises, CO & Villan 2 cold-call, SB folds, Villan 1 3-bets, UTG calls, Hero caps, CO & Villan 2 cold-call again, Villan 1 & UTG both call. Pot = 13 BB.

Turn is Ac, checked to hero who bets, all call. Pot = 18 BB.

River is Qd, checked to hero who bets, CO calls, Villan 2 raises, Villan 1 and UTG both fold, Hero 3-bets, CO folds, Villan 2 caps, Hero calls. Pot = 27 BB.

Hand # 2 came two hands later w/Hero in BB. In this hand Villan is UTG+2, have not played with him before, but he has 4-5 racks of chips in front of him and based on the other player comments he has been playing and winning big w/ATC, the deck is just running him over. Hero is BB w/ 5d8h. Folded to Villan who calls, 2 more calls, SB completes Hero checks. Pot = 5 SB.

Flop comes face card, 6, 7 two diamonds. Checked to Hero who bets, all call. Pot = 5 BB.

Turn is 4d. Checked to Hero who bets, Villan calls, 1 other call. Pot = 8 BB.

River is a Q, no diamond. Hero bets, Villan raises, 1 fold, Hero calls. Pot = 12 BB.

As stated in the title, I think I've just given a seminar on bad river play. Although I took drastically different tacks on the river in the two hands it seems to me that both hands demonstrate different facets of the same mistake. Anyway, lay into me.

[marrek]

Hand #1

3-betting the river is villan dependent. If he's capable of raising there with 2pair, then 3-betting is fine, but he'd half to be very slow not to know that you have a huge hand. Is he clueless? Raising here with JQ? When he caps, i'd call and expect to lose, the pot is too big to fold.

Hand#2
Everything is fine in this hand IMO. Leading at the river is right. You've got a big hand that will get paid off alot of times by weak pairs. No one has shown any interest in the pot, so leading is right. When he raises, he has a hand, but I wouldn't fold. You're getting 11:1 that he doesn't have a flush. He sure played it like a flush, but the pots big enough to pay it off.

marrek

[DeuceKicker]

Hand 1 is one of those hands where your read trumps default advice. If you had no read on Villain2, I'd say you failed to think about what he was cold-calling with on the flop. Very often it's a flush or OESD. Since there was no flush draw on the flop, you have to be wary of a card that completes someone's OESD, which the Q does.

Your read is that he might overvalue something like two pair, but I still think it's more likely that he made the straight. That, added to the fact that your set is bottom set, and I'd bet/call the river.

If you bet/raise/call you're giving him two extra bets when he has you beat, but only extracting one extra bet from him when you're best.

I think Hand 2 is fine. The way you word it makes it seem that you had the best hand, but don't be results-oriented. The obvious draw got there and he raised, so just call.

[VegasNoob]

I think you hit on exactly the issue in hand #1 which is confusing the fact that he could possibly raise with two pair with the likliehood he raised with two pair. I also hadn't really thought about things in terms of risking two to win one, but in those terms it makes me feel better about hand two. The reason I was self critical on hand #2 is probably a little revisionist history because after playing a while longer I realized that the Villan in hand #2 was far more likely to raise an over-valued hand than the Villan in hand #1, so if I was going to three-bet anyone on the river it should have been the villan in hand #2. In reality though, it's still risking two to gain one, so it seems bet/call is good.

[VegasNoob]

Thanks for the thoughts, hand #1 I think raising QJ on the river was definitely in Villan's range which is why I reraised, but I think I focused too much on the fact that raising two pair was in his range and not on the likliehood that he had two pair as opposed to something that beat me.