3-bet with QJs and flop 2 pair. and then....

[Dan Bitel]

preflop is fine, as is calling.

On the flop, you HAVE to bet. For 1, if you check this flop then lead turn or c/r flop, you're NOT bluffing, and i'm sure he knows this too.

If he shoves, we have an easy call...he can be shoving draws and draw + 1 pair hands loads. And even if you think its close, thats not a reason to check, we still get stacked when behind, so just bet and give him the chance to make a mistake, its a lot harder for him to make a mistake if you check, b/c you'd cbet like always here.

Lastly, note that any Ace, King, Ten kills your hand, and thats 1/4 the deck.

As played, turn is standard.

And river you just have to c/f

[cs3]

[ QUOTE ]

. If we assume that A) Facing a bet, villain will fold all his losers and call or raise with all his winners.
B) When checked to villain will bet his lock hands and sometimes bluff his losing hands and that we won't be able to call a sizable bet.
When, if ever, is it proper to bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

this is the EXACT situation i felt i was dealing with on the river.
1) i never expected to be called by worse
2) i am never geting bluff raised if bet
3) if i check this villain is betting hands that:
- are better
- that have zero showdown value - 88, 99, missed diamond draws he picked up on the turn, any other random 1 pr hands

my hand also looks a lot like AK/KK/KQ so i though villain miiiight even fold like AJ/AT if i bet - could he?

at the time i decided making a small bet hoping to just take it down was best, but im not so sure now... maybe pushing and hoping he just didnt have a K would be better than a blocker? because i think he can only call a push with AK/KK/KQ

any more thoughts on this because its a pretty difficult spot and theres no clear cut 'best' play

[cs3]

[ QUOTE ]

On the flop, you HAVE to bet. For 1, if you check this flop then lead turn or c/r flop, you're NOT bluffing, and i'm sure he knows this too.

If he shoves, we have an easy call...he can be shoving draws and draw + 1 pair hands loads. And even if you think its close, thats not a reason to check, we still get stacked when behind, so just bet and give him the chance to make a mistake, its a lot harder for him to make a mistake if you check, b/c you'd cbet like always here.


[/ QUOTE ]

im not sure if i agree with this yet or not.
i think villains range for {calling a bet/shoving with worse} was way smaller than the range he would bet with if i checked to him. i was looking for max value vs his entire range, not trying to play optimally vs 1 or 2 specific hands.
i knew off the bat that i would sometimes lose action on bad turns, and possibly even be forced to give up the pot but i still dont think that makes betting the flop neccesarily better.


also,
if i c/c flop, then i would c/rai any non-A,K,T turn

if i check raise flop it would be all in, and i think he looks me up pretty often with Ax

[rebuyboy]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol you fold QJs preflop to a button open? lol

[cs3]

[ QUOTE ]
Haven't you learend from this epci thread?

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post6267939 [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]


[/ QUOTE ]


this is a great thread but somehitng i think a lot of people might have failed to communicate, is that there is a huge difference between saying
1) "i would much rather 3bet/not 3bet with QJs out of the blinds than hand XY", and
2) "in a reraised pot, i would much rather have/not have QJs than hand XY"

[SSES]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol you fold QJs preflop to a button open? lol

[/ QUOTE ]

i generally do.... is that a leak?

[cs3]

anyway i gues ill psot results...

i made a retardedly small $20 river bet and villain made a retardely small raise, and i folded.

not sure my river line has any merit at all and i hated it soon as i thuhgt about it some.
and a push to get villain off any non-K hand might be better than a small bet.

i think c/f is definitely best though