It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to ....

[thylacine]

It is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to create a universe in which any other being has free-will.

Here is the argument. (I came up with this a while back, but it may well be some standard argument known to philosophers. If it is, could some philosopher post a reference.)

An omniscient (all-knowing), omnipotent (all-powerful) god has complete knowledge of everything that happens, everywhere, at all times (past present, future) in everything that exists, and moreover, fully comprehends instantly and permanently the entirety of all possible universes with comprehensive knowledge of every detail of everything in every possible universe. An omniscient (all-knowing) god, by definition, must know everything about everything, and in particular, they must know everything about anything they create and about any choice they make. When an omniscient (all-knowing), omnipotent (all-powerful) god creates a universe they must know everything about it, and hence they exactly which of the posible universes it is. So for an omniscient (all-knowing), omnipotent (all-powerful) god, creating a universe means simply choosing one from the list of all possible universes, which automatically means choosing every detail of that universe. Obviously that means for any other being that finds themselves living in such a universe, they never get to choose anything because the omniscient (all-knowing), omnipotent (all-powerful) god already chose absolutely every detail of everything that happens in that universe.

Therefore it is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to create a universe in which any other being has free-will. QED

What are the consequences of this. Well, for anyone who believes in omniscient, omnipotent god, such as the christian god, or anything remotely similar, the existence of such a god must logically imply that there is no free will, so that morality becomes meaningless, consciousness becomes pointless, and that generally the universe is utterly without purpose or meaning.

By contrast, as an atheist, I can logically choose to believe in free will, I can meaningfully contemplate moral questions and can explore consciousness and can find purpose and meaning to the universe.

Let's do a survey. Here are the options.

[PLOlover]

There was a good scifi book, Neverness, that explored stuff like this.

One scene was about free will and how you could still want to do something that you have little choice about.

The sequels were written later and not as good by far imo.

[John21]

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Therefore it is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to create a universe in which any other being has free-will. QED

[/ QUOTE ]

Hold on. It is my understanding that there is a reciprocal process taking place between God and man, where what we are is a process of realization to God. Through man God continually actualizes deeper aspects of His being.

What I interpret as the infinite good of God, is more or less, the infinite potential for good. Take love for example. Love must be volitional or it has no meaning at all, it would simply be a mechanism. So if God is to realize the reality of love, it can only be by relation to some being which has the power or free-will to withhold love.

In my mind it's a similiar process to the way we deal with the laws of nature. Within them is simply potential, until that potential becomes actualized through our understanding of their nature.

So in my mind the existence of a benevolent loving God wouldn't make a being with free-will illogical - it would make one a necessity.

[NotReady]

You forgot this in your poll:

I am an atheist/agnostic and any worldview I can even articulate is utterly, hopelessly, irredeemably unintelligible and indefensible.

[thylacine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Therefore it is logically impossible for an omniscient, omnipotent god to create a universe in which any other being has free-will. QED

[/ QUOTE ]

Hold on. It is my understanding that there is a reciprocal process taking place between God and man, where what we are is a process of realization to God. Through man God continually actualizes deeper aspects of His being.

What I interpret as the infinite good of God, is more or less, the infinite potential for good. Take love for example. Love must be volitional or it has no meaning at all, it would simply be a mechanism. So if God is to realize the reality of love, it can only be by relation to some being which has the power or free-will to withhold love.

In my mind it's a similiar process to the way we deal with the laws of nature. Within them is simply potential, until that potential becomes actualized through our understanding of their nature.

So in my mind the existence of a benevolent loving God wouldn't make a being with free-will illogical - it would make one a necessity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is some logic.

Consider the two statements:

(1) The existence of an entity with property A implies that C is false.

(2) The existence of an entity with property B implies that C is true.

These two statements together imply that an entity with both properties A and B does not exist.

My argument combined with your argument shows that the god you believe in does not exist.

[snowden719]

why would an omniscient god know what I'm going to do in the future? if you think he could know that, then your definition of free will is going to be one that isn't going to cause the problems you think it does. Specifically we can look at two concepts of freedom

Strong freedom ( X is strongly free if in situation A he can P or not P) if this is true, then God doesn't know about future situations because there's simply no fact of the matter about what X will do in the future, and God only knows all true propositions or all facts/

Weak freedom (had X chosen to not P in situation A, he would have: usually broadly defined as being the causal seat of one's actions.) if this is the conception that you have of freedom, there's no problem yet again as one can be free even though god knew in advance what they would choose.

[snowden719]

oh also, please read a minimum of one essay on the topic of freedom by a decent philosopher (two would be even better) before you start spouting off nonsense.

[madnak]

This is false for many reasons. Determinism and free will aren't mutually exclusive. Specific knowledge of the future only invalidates free will if it has effects that are universally "random" (and there's no reason to make such an assumption at a cosmological level). An omniscient God might not have specific knowledge of the future anyhow.

[CityFan]

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You forgot this in your poll:

I am an atheist/agnostic and any worldview I can even articulate is utterly, hopelessly, irredeemably unintelligible and indefensible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ooh, I'm sure that would have got a lot of takers.

Can we have one for Christians too?

[Piers]

"omniscient, omnipotent" is a title not a discription.