Las Vegas Small buy in Tourney Strategies? Lost?

[yimyammer]

I have been in town sweating the WSOP and playing some of the smaller buy in tourneys at the Mirage and Caesars.

How is the best way to play these things? There doesn’t appear to be any room to play poker and see flops. Can anyone expand on when to start pushing and which hands I should push with? I’ve read Harrington’s books, but apparently I just don’t get when I should start going push crazy. Any other tips as well?

Thanks in advance.

*****WARNING**** *

Ignore the following for the tl;dr crowd. For those that need/want more info continue reading.

These small buy in tourneys typically start with about $2500 to $3000 in chips and the blinds start at 25/50 and tend to change every 30 minutes.

I cant seem to build any chips and at best hang around long enough to where I am in push mode.

I am conditioned by my online play to be able to get away with playing pretty tight, but I think that only works out for me because I see more hands. I’m guessing we may only see a third as many live versus online, which effectively triples the levels.

I was in the mirage tourney and folded AQ three times to raises and or reraises and on the 4th time got frustrated and couldn't fold them again and pushed only to be called by JJ and 77 (which I was reasonably happy to see). The jack on the flop ended it for me and had me thinking I should be valuing this hand and others higher due to the fact you don’t get to see as many hands live as online and because I later discovered that the players were playing much looser than I tend to see online.

Ex: 2nd hand of the tournament, there is a limp from under the gun (who I later discovered was a maniac), there was a raise in mid position from a player I didn't really have a read on, but thought might be decent and fairly tight. I had AQ of spades in the BB and didn’t want to get trapped with a hand against players I had no read on out of position., so I folded. On the Axx flop, under the gun immediately pushed all in for like 15 to 20 times the pot. The original raiser folded Kings face up and the limper showed A7. Even if I had called preflop, I'm not sure I had enough of a read on this guy to make the call, but then again I said I am tight and apparently too tight. I still don’t know if it was a good fold. I guess I should have seen a flop.

I tried to screw around with some random hands like 88 and J10 and just bled chips. I decided I had a tight image and raised under the gun with J10 suited and was called in two places. The flop came 10/7/7. I bet out half the pot, mid position folded and the late position guy called. The turn was a deuce and I checked and he went all in for what was about a qtr of my stack. I didn’t have a read on this guy and couldn’t see him having A10/K10/Q10/10-10 or any hand with a 7 and thought maybe he was floating me with 88/99 but could have had jacks. I decided to call him and he showed Q7 suited. I wanted to pull a tough fish and start cussing like a sailor, but bit my lip

The blinds finally got up to 200/400 with a 50 ante and all I had was about 1800. I pushed once with Q10 suited and got up to about $4200 and the only playable hand (in my estimation) I saw in the next 12 hands was J8.

Should I have pushed with that hand when I still had 4200?

Or, should I push with any two when in mid to late position if I am first to open the pot? I considered pushing with 26 of hearts on the button when it was folded to me but couldn’t make myself do it.

I bled down to 1600 in chips and finally felt compelled to call an under the gun raise with KJ two off the blinds and got knocked out by KQ (should I have passed? I just wasn’t getting any hands and with the blinds coming in one hand, I just didn’t think I’d see a better hand even though I was probably in bad shape with my KJ.

Bottom line is I don’t know how to build chips in these things and it seems like all I can ever do is hold on for dear life and hope I can find a hand to push with, hope to catch and repeat until I’m either knocked out or get on a roll.

I’ve read Harrington’s books, but I guess I just don’t understand when the push strategy should begin and which hands I should be pushing with

Help, anyone?

[McMelchior]

[ QUOTE ]
I am conditioned by my online play to be able to get away with playing pretty tight, but I think that only works out for me because I see more hands

[/ QUOTE ]
While blinds are comparably low (while you have 50BB+) be prepared to invest 25% - 30% of your stack in speculative hands; you can call raises with suited one- or two-gappers and suited Aces in position. Try to get good reads on who will re-raise from the blinds, and who will fold or call, so you don't waste too many chips.

[ QUOTE ]
I was in the mirage tourney and folded AQ three times to raises and or reraises

[/ QUOTE ]
Call EP raises in position with AQ or LP raises from the blinds with AQ. Try to get reads on who will c-bet, and who will CR.

[ QUOTE ]
there is a limp from under the gun (who I later discovered was a maniac), there was a raise in mid position from a player I didn't really have a read on, but thought might be decent and fairly tight. I had AQ of spades in the BB and didn’t want to get trapped with a hand against players I had no read on out of position., so I folded.[...]I guess I should have seen a flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

[ QUOTE ]
I tried to screw around with some random hands like 88 and J10

[/ QUOTE ]
These are not random hands, they're solid starting hands - limp/call 88 in EP (if blinds are still low-ish), open-raise 88 and JT from MP.

[ QUOTE ]
I decided I had a tight image and raised under the gun with J10 suited

[/ QUOTE ]
Fold. Or limp/fold. You want many players in the hand with JTs.

[ QUOTE ]
the only playable hand (in my estimation) I saw in the next 12 hands was J8.
Should I have pushed with that hand when I still had 4200?

[/ QUOTE ]
Only from the SB, if it's folded to you.

[ QUOTE ]
should I push with any two when in mid to late position if I am first to open the pot?

[/ QUOTE ]
No. Ten BB means if you're playing you're playing for all of your stack, 'cause you're priced in to call a raise anyway. It doesn't mean it's suddenly profitable to play crap hands.

[ QUOTE ]
I bled down to 1600 in chips and finally felt compelled to call an under the gun raise with KJ two off the blinds

[/ QUOTE ]
I understand your desperation, but don't call UTG raises with KJ. Blinding down below 4 BB is not fun, since you pretty much lose all FE, but if you get there you might as well wait for a good spot - and calling an UTG raise with KJ is NOT a good spot.

With 2 - 4 BB you can open-push from MP with any pair and strong Ace, LP with any Ace, button with top 50% hands and SB with any hand.

Low buy-in tournaments are generally a donk-fest, and you need to either have a good run of cards early on, or pick up good reads on the most aggro players and use them to win their chips.

In general you'll not get any credit for "a tight image" - most players will instead see a "timid image", if you fold a lot preflop. This is of course good because you'll get paid of when you hit. But you'll have no license to bluff just because you folded every hand PF the first half hour.

[Son of 51 LIMA]

If you are sitting there and folding everything AQ and lower to a raise, you are playing way too tight.

Also, don't assume that anyone who doesn't play as tight as you is a fish. That player that called your early position raise just may be an very observant player that noticed that you fold to a stiff breeze. Even if you were coming in with AK, it would be wise for someone to call you with anything because the vast majority of the time, the flop will come with cards that don't pair you up and anyone sitting IN POSITION, can take the pot away from you regardless of their holding. In this case, he happened to hit better than you and really took you out.

[yimyammer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am conditioned by my online play to be able to get away with playing pretty tight, but I think that only works out for me because I see more hands

[/ QUOTE ]
While blinds are comparably low (while you have 50BB+) be prepared to invest 25% - 30% of your stack in speculative hands; you can call raises with suited one- or two-gappers and suited Aces in position. Try to get good reads on who will re-raise from the blinds, and who will fold or call, so you don't waste too many chips.

[ QUOTE ]
I was in the mirage tourney and folded AQ three times to raises and or reraises

[/ QUOTE ]
Call EP raises in position with AQ or LP raises from the blinds with AQ. Try to get reads on who will c-bet, and who will CR.

[ QUOTE ]
there is a limp from under the gun (who I later discovered was a maniac), there was a raise in mid position from a player I didn't really have a read on, but thought might be decent and fairly tight. I had AQ of spades in the BB and didn’t want to get trapped with a hand against players I had no read on out of position., so I folded.[...]I guess I should have seen a flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

[ QUOTE ]
I tried to screw around with some random hands like 88 and J10

[/ QUOTE ]
These are not random hands, they're solid starting hands - limp/call 88 in EP (if blinds are still low-ish), open-raise 88 and JT from MP.

[ QUOTE ]
I decided I had a tight image and raised under the gun with J10 suited

[/ QUOTE ]
Fold. Or limp/fold. You want many players in the hand with JTs.

[ QUOTE ]
the only playable hand (in my estimation) I saw in the next 12 hands was J8.
Should I have pushed with that hand when I still had 4200?

[/ QUOTE ]
Only from the SB, if it's folded to you.

[ QUOTE ]
should I push with any two when in mid to late position if I am first to open the pot?

[/ QUOTE ]
No. Ten BB means if you're playing you're playing for all of your stack, 'cause you're priced in to call a raise anyway. It doesn't mean it's suddenly profitable to play crap hands.

[ QUOTE ]
I bled down to 1600 in chips and finally felt compelled to call an under the gun raise with KJ two off the blinds

[/ QUOTE ]
I understand your desperation, but don't call UTG raises with KJ. Blinding down below 4 BB is not fun, since you pretty much lose all FE, but if you get there you might as well wait for a good spot - and calling an UTG raise with KJ is NOT a good spot.

With 2 - 4 BB you can open-push from MP with any pair and strong Ace, LP with any Ace, button with top 50% hands and SB with any hand.

Low buy-in tournaments are generally a donk-fest, and you need to either have a good run of cards early on, or pick up good reads on the most aggro players and use them to win their chips.

In general you'll not get any credit for "a tight image" - most players will instead see a "timid image", if you fold a lot preflop. This is of course good because you'll get paid of when you hit. But you'll have no license to bluff just because you folded every hand PF the first half hour.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for your reply. I am WAY to tight. That's my fallback position when I don't know what I'm doing, which is most of the time.

I hear people say they will never let themselves get down to 3BB's, which implies to me they are pushing with less than optimal hands somewhere. This is where I am lost, when I get below 10 BB's, I start feeling rushed to play a hand, but I really don't know how bad of a hand I should play or whether I should push my stack or what.

Damn, I just don't seem to get this game and it drives me crazy. I graduated Cum Laude, nailed the CPA exam in one try, taught myself architecture & homebuilding at the highest levels of detail/quality. Yet, I am apparently a complete [censored] when it comes to playing poker.

I need a mentor or a long post on "Low M play for dummies"

[FlyingCarpet]

No offense intended but your play seems very weak tight. You should loosen up your calling/raising ranges and definitely step up the aggression.

My experience in these types of tourneys is to play your solid hands very fast and aggro and you will likely get paid off. Also, most touristy players (definitely not all villians) are only level 1 thinkers/calling stations and will easily stack off with TPnoK or gut shot str8 draws. They also are very afraid of blind increases and usually play waaay to tight and get short stacked.

Personally, I've found a lot of success in shoving over the top of most raisers when I have AQ/AK in the BB since you see a lot of A rag/Q9o type of hands when you get called. Also, if the table seems timid and there are a 5-6 limpers, I put in a big raise with top 30% hands from the BB, almost always results in folds all around and dead money if you get a caller.

I play a ton of SnG's online and treat each live lower buyin MTT like a SnG on the bubble. Lots of stealing and restealing. Most people don't have a clue how to respond to the aggression, but be careful with those that do.

Bottom line, table image usually means nothing so play more hands more aggro!!

[FlyingCarpet]

[ QUOTE ]

Thanks for your reply. I am WAY to tight. That's my fallback position when I don't know what I'm doing, which is most of the time.

I hear people say they will never let themselves get down to 3BB's, which implies to me they are pushing with less than optimal hands somewhere. This is where I am lost, when I get below 10 BB's, I start feeling rushed to play a hand, but I really don't know how bad of a hand I should play or whether I should push my stack or what.

Damn, I just don't seem to get this game and it drives me crazy. I graduated Cum Laude, nailed the CPA exam in one try, taught myself architecture & homebuilding at the highest levels of detail/quality. Yet, I am apparently a complete [censored] when it comes to playing poker.

I need a mentor or a long post on "Low M play for dummies"

[/ QUOTE ]

In addition to the good advice from other posters, I would suggest you spend time in the STT forum and play some SnG's. I too had read HoH and others, studied the MTT forum and my game did improve, but when I got the advice to get some SnG experience my game improved dramically. You can't win SnGs without learning low M/bubble play. You will learn that most winning players rarely play a hand (typically only JJ+AK in early levels) until they are down to 10BBs. And when they do play a hand, it is very, very aggro with big raises/bets/reraises etc.

When I do find myself getting short(10-15BB) I open push ATC from CO or later. Under 10BB I'm open pushing any Ace from any position and broadway cards from late. The big pushes almost always ensure folds.

As I stated earlier, I play these like SnGs on the bubble.

[yimyammer]

[ QUOTE ]
No offense intended but your play seems very weak tight. You should loosen up your calling/raising ranges and definitely step up the aggression.

My experience in these types of tourneys is to play your solid hands very fast and aggro and you will likely get paid off. Also, most touristy players (definitely not all villians) are only level 1 thinkers/calling stations and will easily stack off with TPnoK or gut shot str8 draws. They also are very afraid of blind increases and usually play waaay to tight and get short stacked.

Personally, I've found a lot of success in shoving over the top of most raisers when I have AQ/AK in the BB since you see a lot of A rag/Q9o type of hands when you get called. Also, if the table seems timid and there are a 5-6 limpers, I put in a big raise with top 30% hands from the BB, almost always results in folds all around and dead money if you get a caller.

I play a ton of SnG's online and treat each live lower buyin MTT like a SnG on the bubble. Lots of stealing and restealing. Most people don't have a clue how to respond to the aggression, but be careful with those that do.

Bottom line, table image usually means nothing so play more hands more aggro!!

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense taken, rip me new one, i need all the constructively critical advice I can get.

I'm on a poker island and don't have any friends who play, so I don't have anyone who is good to discuss strategy and my play with. If it wasn't for this great forum, I'd have nothing at all.

Thanks for you advice, I will let it sink in and try to apply it the next time I'm at the table.

I find online to be much more tight that live. Do you? I'm wondering if the online game has negatively effected my live game.

[SonofDjugashvili]

Also check out Schneider's Poker Tournament Formula - very good for these small buy-in live tourneys.

[MJBuddy]

Might sound nuts, but I think you're a quality example of someone who might just plain like LHE more than NL.

[yimyammer]

[ QUOTE ]
Might sound nuts, but I think you're a quality example of someone who might just plain like LHE more than NL.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't say that I disagree with you, but I have come to hate limit poker. That's what I've played for years but it's such a grind, I'm too bored to care to improve.

I guess what your saying is that maybe some people just can't play no limit well and I might be that someone. I've considered this. I'm not a big gambler, so I know that is an inherent weakness in no limit. However, I don't mind putting my chips in if I know why I'm doing it. What I don't like doing is playing a reckless, crazy gambler style which I am not capable of doing. Even the guys who have this image aren't as crazy as they appear, they know what their doing and why. I long to be that kind of player, but I honestly haven't put in enough work to determine whether I can excel or not. I'm guessing I might have a total of 20 hours in live no limit play and hundreds of hours of NL tourney play. All in all, it probably amounts to less than a month that an online multi-tabler has experienced.

So, I know I need more experience, work and study but my job hasn't afforded me the time. I am hoping in the coming months or year to be able to make a sustained efffort to really attacking this game, but time will only tell.

This makes me wonder:

1. Are some people just encapable of ever exceling at no limit holdem and if so, what keeps them from ever being successful?

2. What are the essential ingredients to being a successful NL Holdem tourney/cash game player?

Thanks again for everyone's thoughts, keep em coming.