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#1
10-30-2007, 07:17 PM
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Re: USS Liberty: Accident or Cover-up?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Honestly, I think the Israelis were to busy those 6 days to cook up some crazy scheme. The 6-day war as setting is as 'good' as it gets to make for mistakes like this. Chaos, nervousness, itchy triggerfingers, ample room for misinterpretation of information/cues and a strong willingness to open fire. Is my 'version' an absolute? Nah, but I'll flow with the simple scenario. [/ QUOTE ] Seriously, don't say that the Liberty attack was an accident until you read the article I posted above. Afterwards, if you still believe it, I don't know what to say. [/ QUOTE ] No, I really don't think that article changes much thb - I simply don't think it realizes just how much goes on in terms of information traffic in wartime, and that there is actually an incredibly high potential for mistakes being done due to sheer _enormous_ amount of information that passes and failing to handle the load of it. The article also leaves out important details on the torpedo attack that followed the air raid, this seems to be an attempt to build up under the 'purposeful' angle, and that takes away a lot from its credibility. But if you twist the questions to 'Should they have realized?' based on the information available, you can still build a very interesting case. It is not uncommon to attempt to cloud up poor judgment and inefficiency in situations like these. 
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#2
10-30-2007, 06:32 PM
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Re: USS Liberty: Accident or Cover-up?
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But did they they know the ship belonged to their most important international ally, and one of the strongest military nations in the world and decided to attack it while they were fighting an outnumbered war against 3 other countries? [/ QUOTE ] Well if they did the plan worked like a charm!
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#4
10-30-2007, 06:38 PM
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Pure Nitwittery.....
Why would Israel attack their best ally in the world?
What would they gain from doing such an attack? This conspiracy theory is so stupid.... Perhaps the US Army killed Pat Tillman on purpose so as to reap the military and propaganda benfits for doing so...... Yes?
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#5
10-30-2007, 07:13 PM
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Re: Pure Nitwittery.....
[ QUOTE ]
Why would Israel attack their best ally in the world? What would they gain from doing such an attack? [/ QUOTE ] so you're saying the israelis never conducted a secret attack on their allies to blame it on their enemies? hint: yes they did. and they admitted it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair
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#6
10-30-2007, 10:31 PM
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Re: Pure Nitwittery.....
A Key quote from the wiki article"
"The homemade bombs, consisting of bags containing acid placed over nitroglycerine, were inserted into books, and placed on the shelves of the libraries just before closing time. Several hours later, as the acid ate through the bags, the bombs would explode. They did little damage to the targets and caused no injuries or deaths." The Israelis did not want any injuries or deaths hence the timing of the bomb blasts and for good reason. If the operation was discovered, these injuries/deaths would cause even greater harm to Anglo-Israeli relations. With the Lavon affair, the Israelis made a +EV play that failed. In hindsight, the Eisenhower administration were complete MORONS when they bullied the French/Brits to give the Suez back to Egypt. The Israelis had greater foresight than that dim witted Eisenhower... This was a case where the ends justified the means....but alas for the USA/UK...it failed. Giving up the Suez Canal was almost as dumb as Jimmy Carter giving away the Panamal Canal for NOTHING...... But with regard to the the Liberty incident, I still say this conspiracy theory is nonsense for the following reasons: 1. The Arabs at that time did not have much of a Navy. So trying to blame a naval encounter on the Arabs would be a tough sell. 2. The Israelis are very intelligent. The previous failed Lavon affair would make a second failed Lavon2 affair EXTREMLY -EV. The risks would FAR outweigh the benefits. Trying another incident like this after being caught in the previous bombings would be STUPID. 3. No one can provide a compelling motive for this incident. The motive in the Lavon incident was to keep the Suez canal from falling in the hands on Arab nationalists. So what was the motive here? But my compliments for providing and intelligent post and citing the Lavon incident. It is nice to see an intelligent post in this forum....
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#7
10-31-2007, 02:32 AM
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Re: Pure Nitwittery.....
[ QUOTE ]
But with regard to the the Liberty incident, I still say this conspiracy theory is nonsense for the following reasons: 1. The Arabs at that time did not have much of a Navy. So trying to blame a naval encounter on the Arabs would be a tough sell. 2. The Israelis are very intelligent. The previous failed Lavon affair would make a second failed Lavon2 affair EXTREMLY -EV. The risks would FAR outweigh the benefits. Trying another incident like this after being caught in the previous bombings would be STUPID. 3. No one can provide a compelling motive for this incident. The motive in the Lavon incident was to keep the Suez canal from falling in the hands on Arab nationalists. So what was the motive here? [/ QUOTE ] the main problem with your type of thinking here, imo, is that you are arguing totally from generalities. while thinking in generalities is imo ok for certain things like trying to form a hypothesis or other "front loading" mental tasks, when you apply this thinking to an end result you totally toss out 99% of the available information, while also refusing to change your mind and/or consider any other argument. In essence, you are saying you don't believe it no matter what the evidence. which is ok if you are the mother of an accused criminal or whatever, but don't expect your belief to persuade anyone else who is not also the mother, lol.
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#8
10-31-2007, 11:00 AM
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Re: Pure Nitwittery.....
[ QUOTE ]
the main problem with your type of thinking here, imo, is that you are arguing totally from generalities. while thinking in generalities is imo ok for certain things like trying to form a hypothesis or other "front loading" mental tasks, when you apply this thinking to an end result you totally toss out 99% of the available information, while also refusing to change your mind and/or consider any other argument. [/ QUOTE ] In the absence of overwhelming facts, I believe applying Occam's Razor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor The simple explanation is the Israeli's screwed up... [ QUOTE ] In essence, you are saying you don't believe it no matter what the evidence. which is ok if you are the mother of an accused criminal or whatever, but don't expect your belief to persuade anyone else who is not also the mother, lol. [/ QUOTE ] Evidence? If you have compelling hard evidence then please provide it. All I have seen is a lot of speculation. As for the criminal analogy it is not persuasive. The Israel's have more rationality in a fingernail than you could find in the entire prison population on the planet....
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#9
10-31-2007, 02:39 AM
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Re: Pure Nitwittery.....
www.ussliberty.org/why.htm [ QUOTE ] 3. No one can provide a compelling motive for this incident. The motive in the Lavon incident was to keep the Suez canal from falling in the hands on Arab nationalists. So what was the motive here? [/ QUOTE ]
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#10
10-31-2007, 07:41 AM
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Re: Pure Nitwittery.....
Well, believe you me. You could have 30 people standing in that warrom hearing that pilot and things could still go wrong, trust me. Organizations and informationhandling is my career and I've had experience with military organizations and communication too, including comms with airplanes and the timeframes are minimal - couple this with the chaos of the 6-day war, pyramidic authority structure, overload of information and things can go very wrong. The 'why/if' is incredibly important because nobody is denying that the ship was attacked, the interesting bit is the how/why/what/where/when.
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Hybrid Mode
