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Old 11-16-2007, 10:36 AM
akak akak is offline
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Default 10NL - Flopped set, value extraction OOP

Villain was 43/13/7 after ~80. I've been having trouble extracting value from my sets. In limit, waiting until the turn is usually incorrect, and I'm wondering if the same holds in NL. It seems like most of my opponents wait until the turn, then check-raise me. This is pretty easy to see through, which leads me to think it's better not to do this. Thoughts?

Full Tilt Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

UTG ($8.30)
MP ($9.75)
Button ($6.75)
Hero ($9.45)
BB ($6.65)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $0.3</font>, Hero calls $0.25, BB calls $0.20.

Does villain have enough money to justify calling for set value?

Flop: ($0.90) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $0.8</font>, BB folds, Button calls $0.80.

I lead out here hoping to sandwich BB between us. Anything wrong with this, or should I have gone for a checkraise?

Turn: ($2.50) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $1.75</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $4...</font>

I check here because of his high aggression factor. I figure he'll bet here often enough.

How do you guys play this differently?
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  #2  
Old 11-16-2007, 12:06 PM
Webster Webster is offline
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Default Re: 10NL - Flopped set, value extraction OOP

Personally I would not have played this PF because of only one player was for sure going to be in the pot.

As played I would have put in a smaller raise making it look like I have something but am not real happy with it. Your pot size raise might have scared him off ????

After that - you got him and I would do the same. Pot is nice size so wining it right there is not a bad thing, if he calls great.

As in limit I don;t like to wait too long with a set. Last thing you want is to see a ten on the river.

I'd say NH!!
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  #3  
Old 11-16-2007, 12:36 PM
Ulkis Ulkis is offline
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Default Re: 10NL - Flopped set, value extraction OOP

Pot sized raise on the turn would be 2x amount to call + pot
ie $6 &lt; $4 or have I understood this wrong?
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  #4  
Old 11-16-2007, 01:51 PM
Alobar Alobar is offline
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Default Re: 10NL - Flopped set, value extraction OOP

PF is easy IMO. It's less than 5% (or just about) his stack, and he's aggresive so you've got your implied odds.

I prolly would have bet a little less on the flop to hopefully induce a raise, but I think your turn c/r is sexy. I might have been scared to pull it off cuz so of how drawy the board got, but you had a read so go with it.
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  #5  
Old 11-16-2007, 03:29 PM
Webster Webster is offline
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Default Re: 10NL - Flopped set, value extraction OOP

[ QUOTE ]
PF is easy IMO. It's less than 5% (or just about) his stack, and he's aggressive so you've got your implied odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea - he is aggressive - guess my "limit" took over there. My concern was even if you hit you might not get paid off but his 7 AG combined with his 43?? VPIP makes him REAL aggressive.
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  #6  
Old 11-16-2007, 06:27 PM
Ulkis Ulkis is offline
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Default Re: 10NL - Flopped set, value extraction OOP

[ QUOTE ]
Pot sized raise on the turn would be 2x amount to call + pot
ie $6 &lt; $4 or have I understood this wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

Or is it: PSR is 2x the amount to call + pot including bets.

2x 1.75 + (2.5 + 1.75) = $7.75

This way Button has to call $6 to win $12.

My head hurts, too many beers.
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  #7  
Old 11-17-2007, 01:32 AM
akak akak is offline
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Default Re: 10NL - Flopped set, value extraction OOP

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pot sized raise on the turn would be 2x amount to call + pot
ie $6 &lt; $4 or have I understood this wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

Or is it: PSR is 2x the amount to call + pot including bets.

2x 1.75 + (2.5 + 1.75) = $7.75

This way Button has to call $6 to win $12.

My head hurts, too many beers.

[/ QUOTE ]

You had it right the first time I think. 2x his bet + original pot.

He only had 3.90 left though so I was pretty much putting him all-in. He ended up folding which left me wondering if I missed some value, but with that T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] hitting, I doubt I should have let him get to the river for less than his stack anyway.
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  #8  
Old 11-17-2007, 03:46 AM
gregorio gregorio is offline
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Default Re: 10NL - Flopped set, value extraction OOP

Flop, I think leading is fine, but c/r is also okay since his stack is small enough that you can get it all in by river with a c/r on flop (with bigger stacks, you might need to bet/3bet flop to build pot enough to get it all in). Like alobar, i lead smaller on flop because i think it is more likely you will get chance to 3bet.

I don't see how you can get more value out of this hand, especially since you got the Turn c/r in. YOu got 2 streets of value against what was probably not a very strong hand. If he has overpair or AJ, with his stack size you probably get his stack no matter how you play the flop and turn. If he has a hand worse than AJ, there is probably no way you get more value than you did. Part of getting value from a set is getting villain to also have a big draw or TP or better. If they don't have that, there's not a lot you can do to trick them into giving you their stack.
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  #9  
Old 11-17-2007, 07:39 AM
Ulkis Ulkis is offline
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Default Re: 10NL - Flopped set, value extraction OOP

Actually the 2nd way is correct. If villain wants to call he is getting 2-to-1 which is what PSR is all about, apparently.

PSR seems intuitively too high to me.
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  #10  
Old 11-17-2007, 10:36 AM
akak akak is offline
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Default Re: 10NL - Flopped set, value extraction OOP

[ QUOTE ]
Actually the 2nd way is correct. If villain wants to call he is getting 2-to-1 which is what PSR is all about, apparently.

PSR seems intuitively too high to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

After doing some searching, yah I guess you're right. I agree, it definitely feels too big. I mean look at the turn then:


Turn: ($2.50) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">Button bets $1.75, Hero raises to $7.75</font>

It's not very intuitive at all. PSR would seem to imply raising the size of the pot. ie, after button bets, the pot is 4.25, so increase his bet by 4.25. raise it the size of the pot.

Still haven't really wrapped my head around this yet. It just feels wrong, but the math works out.

I can't see my self using pot sized raises all that often. Certainly not on the turn. How often do you need to lay your opponent 2:1 on the turn? When he's on an open ended straight flush draw?
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