Gutshot turns into trips...confused

akak · #1 10-22-2007, 02:09 PM

Villain is 41/5.9/1.1 after 17 hands, so relatively unknown. I hadn't seen him do anything noticeable.

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.02 BB (6 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

UTG ($4.71)
Hero ($1.97)
CO ($.99)
Button ($3.16)
SB ($2.31)
BB ($1.79)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.02, Hero raises to $0.09, 1 fold, Button calls $0.09, 1 fold, BB calls $0.07, UTG calls $0.07.

Flop: ($0.37) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB bets $0.02, UTG calls $0.02, Hero calls $0.02, Button raises to $0.2, BB folds, UTG calls $0.18, Hero calls $0.18.

I'm getting about 4-1 here and I'm closing the action with a gutshot and two overcards so I call. Might be questionable.

Turn: ($0.99) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, Button bets $0.2, UTG folds, Hero calls $0.20.

Ok, I got TPTK but I could easily be behind to AQ or AJ, so I want to keep the pot small and get to showdown.

River: ($1.39) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.2, Hero...

What's your play here?

Aceium · #2 10-22-2007, 02:38 PM

I would probably bet out on the river. The way you played it (calling on the flop with two overcards) - why wouldn't you bet when you hit like this? If you're not going to value-bet running trips, then don't make "calling with two overcards" part of your reason to call a raise on the flop. If you're afraid that he has a full house you could make a case for just calling.

But against a 41/6, I shove.

Lostit · #3 10-22-2007, 02:56 PM

IMO you gotta think about the image you're projecting with your play here. You're projecting weakness here, so why then do you think his weak bets are anything more than a half-hearted attempt to get you to give up on this hand?

As played, this hand was already butchered (sorry, not to be harsh, just my opinion) so just call. A re-raise here is probably only called by hands that beat you. Any other value that could have been extracted is already gone.

A better line for this hand would have been:

Preflop: Good Raise, can't help the fact it because community pot, sometimes it happens.

Flop: You're third to act out of 4, and were the preflop raiser, so all eyes were probably on you. Normally betting into a 4-way pot with air is a cardinal sin, but I actually like a .30 c-bet here. A QJ9 board hits a lot of hands, so why can't the villains believe it hits yours too right? Also the first 2 players were weak, so I'm really only betting that the big blind doesn't have it. (His flop bet after watching the first 3 players do nothing can often be a steal attempt). Its a semi-bluff, but any A, K or 10 could change the hand for you. Thats 10 outs which is decent. If I get called, I have position, going to the turn, on everyone except the button. If I get played back at, I'm done.

Turn: If I have position (aka the button folded on the flop), I'm looking to make CHEAP calls or take a free card here if my draw doesn't come in.

River: If one of my draws hits, I'll call or re-raise depending on pot size, and which of my draws actually came in. If I'm unimproved, I'm not getting any more money in here no matter what.

I think a line like that allows you to define your opponents better, draw out to both streets, and limit your overall investment to about the same as you put in on the Flop and river alone.

Calling behind like you did tells you nothing about THEIR cards, as well as encourages them to bluff at you on a draw heavy board.

CrAcK_N_CoKe · #4 10-22-2007, 02:58 PM

raise-turn - bet river as big as you think he will call.

akak · #5 10-22-2007, 03:04 PM

Awesome, thanks for the thoughtful post lostit.

I do agree that c-betting would have made the rest of the hand much easier to play.

Given that it certainly isn't the standard thing to do though, how do you play the turn given the situation I put myself in? Do you raise him there, or are you trying to get to a cheap showdown?

akak · #6 10-22-2007, 03:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
raise-turn - bet river as big as you think he will call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you raising the turn? And by how much? I think he's gonna fold anything I have beat on the turn since it's pretty obvious I hit my ace. Shouldn't I be trying to control the pot size and get to showdown?

akak · #7 10-22-2007, 04:59 PM

Ok, I'm going to divulge the end of the river as it puts me in another difficult spot. As you can probably guess:

River: ($1.39) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.2, Hero raises to $0.6, Button raises to $2.67 (All-In), Hero...

Do you hate my check-raise? Why? I'm having problems knowing when to check-raise or lead out on the river, besides the obvious, if you think he's going to bet, then go for the check-raise.

Do you call this river? It's 1.48 to win 2.87.

DockDD · #8 10-22-2007, 08:00 PM

Flop call is fine as played, but Lostit's ideas are better..

Raise turn. You didn't hit the nuts, but it is one of the cards you were looking for. (If your read is that he's strong and you want to get to showdown cheap, he's letting you get there.)

River: We know next to nothing about our opponents hand and we got there cheap like we wanted, so call. Was he milking us or does he always bet .2? Is it AQ or A3? As played, I think I'm folding, but there are probably enough Ax in his range to call. We finally give him some action, he can see those aces, too, yet he's more than happy to raise it up. Your opponent is only betting 1/5th pot on the turn, but we want more, make a value bet on the river.

Check-raise strong hands on the river when your opponent will be forced to call due to pot odds/hand strength and has shown that he will continue betting. e.g. the pot is $1.00. If you bet $.7-.8, your opponent can just call or fold, but if you CR his bet, he might have to make a crying call with whatever he bet with. You can also check raise on the river when you know your opponent can't be that strong (but will try to value bet) and will have to fold. Most of the time, you want to bet, not check-raise. Here, your check raise is not large enough to force your opponent's decision and a valuebet would work better. He's calling .40 to win ~$2.20 unless he was bluffing the whole time.

Lostit · #9 10-23-2007, 10:25 AM

I fold that river at this point. You check raised him, and he check raised you back. Thats showing a lot of strength on a draw heavy board. In this situation, of all the possible "strong" hands, you have one of the weakest.

Here's what you beat:
Ax (not including Q, J or 8), QJ, KJ, KQ.

Here's what you lost to:
QQ, JJ, 88, 10 9, AQ, AJ, A8, K 10

How many of the hands from the first list are going to re-raise a check raise? Since its on the river, you know they're also not a draw. Fold this hand, you probably lost and a call doesn't justify the frequency of the few times it would be a weaker hand.