Winning in Tough Hold 'em Games

[*TT*]

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Try a little experiment sometimes. Go to a local Borders or have a friend do so. Approach someone in the poker section and ask them if they prefer the look and feel of HOH2 or WTO and MOP. My guess is that the results may surprise you.

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My guess is you would be surprised to learn that you are wrong. Mason is guided by the book buyers at Barnes and Nobel, Borders, Books a Million and others, they advise him what to do to make his books sell better. 2+2 books are text books, they are designed to far outlast the competition - and we pay a premium for that. 90% of the people who post about the 2+2 book printing process are arm chair jockeys who want what they want for their own reasons, never considering the good of 2+2 book sales.

On a related note lets face it, except for the idiot who only buys D&B books now because of their printing quality nobody in this forum would stop buying a great 2+2 book even if it was printed on newspaper because its about the content, not the printing. Now I am not slagging D&B, they produce some fantastic books - but they aren't designed to be the text-book material that 2+2 books market themselves as. 2+2 books should be dog eared, worn in, and scribbled on like a text book tends to become - think of it as such and you will find yourself in a much happier place.

[MarkD]

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Hi Everyone:

It's interesting, but I've been getting a bunch of these lately, including emails and private messages. On the forum, they all seem to come from new posters, but I can't help but think that a little campaign has been started to damage the sales of our books which are currently unsurpassed right now.

For everyone's information, we use top quality paper, do a top quality binding (which took us many years to achieve) that includes the use of PUR glue (which I don't think anyone else in our industry is using), have the best art work inside the books, use top notch cover stock, and so on. If anyone has doubt, all you need to do is go to your nearest Borders or Barnes & Noble, where they have a pretty good poker section, and start comparing the quality of our books to the others. Most don't compare very well.

Anyway, there's always someone out there who seems to be jealous of our success, and I've gotten use to it. As for Winning in Tough Hold 'em Games; Short-Handed and High-Stakes Concepts and Theory for Limit Hold ’em by Nick “Stoxtrader” Grudzien and Geoff “Zobags” Herzog, it is an excellent book that will be very beneficial to those who purchase and study it.

Best wishes,
Mason

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Mason,

I have been here for years and own many 2+2 books (they are pretty much all that I buy quite frankly since I know they are the best), but I disagree with you here. I am going to buy your books regardless of how you package them. You could tie the pages together with string for all I care. I would still buy them as I am interested in the contents more than the package, but we are talking about packaging here so I will give you my thoughts.

Your paper is obviously high quality - it is thick. I'm sure that your glue is high quality as well – you’ve said this many times and I have no reason to doubt you as buying high quality glue surely cuts into your profit margin. Your binding may also be high quality – I have no reason to doubt you.

But, I think this may be the problem. I think that using the highest quality products have resulted in the problems we are experiencing with your books. I know that sounds strange, but let’s do a comparison between two books. I think Mathematics of Poker has a comparable page count to many 2+2 books, yet it is much thinner. Of course, this is because they are using an inferior paper. But because it is thinner the book opens easier (it is much simpler to keep open while taking notes or working through a calculation then an equivalent 2+2 book) and I think this fact alone will allow the book to wear better. The rigidity of the 2+2 spine due to the thickness of the paper is the problem IMO.

Also, I don’t open Miller’s Getting Started in Holdem much (bought it for my girlfriend), but it is a much thinner book and opens easier and therefor reads easier. Again, I believe it would stand up to the test of time better.

I would love to be able to put a 2+2 book down on the table in front of me without having to hold it open while I try to do some math on one of the situations presented in the book. I can do this with Mathematics of Poker, but can not do it with any 2+2 title. The books need to be propped open quite heavily due to the tight binding.

I’m sure you will ignore this, and probably won’t even read it, but I thought I would write it anyways. I am not in publishing and don’t know much about the business of making books. And as I said at the beginner, I will buy them no matter what, so I thought you might appreciate an un-biased opinion. I could also be totally wrong on all of my points.

As an aside: I have Zee’s book and got him to sign it when he was in Calgary and it’s falling apart. I am afraid to open it. This makes me sad.

[dragon14]

Please do the research with the consumers in the store and see what you find out if you think that there is some sort of conspiracy going on here. I would think the loyal readers on this forum are a good indication of which way the wind blows in case you're looking for a weatherman.

I remember not too long ago when HOH had its'cover revised due to popular opinion that the original cover was kind of bad looking. That was good feedback that Mason was getting, not criticism born of jealousy.

[7n7]

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90% of the people who post about the 2+2 book printing process are arm chair jockeys who want what they want for their own reasons, never considering the good of 2+2 book sales.

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This is an unfair and highly subjective statement. I'd expect a little better from you TT.

This thread turned into a book-packaging discussion and I see loyal readers, forum contributors, and 2+2 customers voicing their opinions. I've seen nothing in the comments thus far that imply that they don't see the good in 2+2 book sales. In fact, most comments start with, "I'll buy the books regardless due to the fanatastic content, but they fall apart too easily."

And you're right, well-studied text books should be dog-eared and beaten up. No one disputes that. I've personally read WTO at least 5 times and it still is in almost brand new condition. I've read SSHE about 7-8 times and it looks like I read it while in the shower.

Nothing wrong with voicing that. Mason listens. Mason then comes up with conspiracy theories. Nothing we can do there. He seems to always think the worst in these type discussions.

If the glue, binding, paper, etc. remain as-is, it won't deter many from buying. On the other hand, it shouldn't deter them from commenting either. A lot of us have quite a bit of $$ invested in 2+2 books and it is our 2+2 right (cue "America the Beautiful") to state our issues. And, it also 2+2's right to disagree with the issue and change nothing.

..."America the Beautiful" fades.

[MarkD]

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Try a little experiment sometimes. Go to a local Borders or have a friend do so. Approach someone in the poker section and ask them if they prefer the look and feel of HOH2 or WTO and MOP. My guess is that the results may surprise you.

[/ QUOTE ]

My guess is you would be surprised to learn that you are wrong. Mason is guided by the book buyers at Barnes and Nobel, Borders, Books a Million and others, they advise him what to do to make his books sell better. 2+2 books are text books, they are designed to far outlast the competition - and we pay a premium for that. 90% of the people who post about the 2+2 book printing process are arm chair jockeys who want what they want for their own reasons, never considering the good of 2+2 book sales.

On a related note lets face it, except for the idiot who only buys D&B books now because of their printing quality nobody in this forum would stop buying a great 2+2 book even if it was printed on newspaper because its about the content, not the printing. Now I am not slagging D&B, they produce some fantastic books - but they aren't designed to be the text-book material that 2+2 books market themselves as. 2+2 books should be dog eared, worn in, and scribbled on like a text book tends to become - think of it as such and you will find yourself in a much happier place.

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TT,

[delete big post]

On second thought, I don't want to get into an argument and I don't really know what I'm talking about. I am not a publisher, nor do I have anything to do with that. I just wished the books lay flat better. That is all.

[SenecaJim]

2 Parter:

Part 1 to Mason.

Mason, please ignore these guys. The stiff bindings have made me a mint. I can only guess, maybe 100, at the times 2+2 books have been discussed at a poker table. The other person and I will have mentioned reading the book, then a big pot will occur which I win and they lose. After they have had a chance to mope, I will mention I'm surprised at their play after the explanation given in chapter 7 of (insert title). Invaribly I get the same response " I never studied that chapter because of those stiff bindings, damn!"

To posters:

These type of threads crack me up. We never got these
" back in the day". (pre-5,000 membership). I guess some people are micro instead of macro purchasers. Also, it is so pointless to argue over a preference. For example, I love the package of the 2+2 books. I like the worn look on my bindings , I really do.(but hey, I dress like David S. and prefer that too). I don't like the shiny-never -been-touched look on a book. But hey , I wouldn't make a post about it. Also, wait until about 100 hours of reading, bending, throwing in the car, steam from the shower, etc. They will stay open better than you think.

[*TT*]

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Nothing wrong with voicing that. Mason listens. Mason then comes up with conspiracy theories. Nothing we can do there. He seems to always think the worst in these type discussions.

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Thats because the conspiracy theories are actually based on truth - he isn't pulling this out of thin air. The challenge becomes when Mason has to filter out those who are a part of the conspiracy, and those who are just chiming in or expressing their opinion.

For those who don't know I am a publisher as well, Mason and I have a lot in common and we discuss the business challenges of selling our printed products. I really get where he is coming from because if I were in his shoes I would often make the same decisions because although they may not be popular ones, they help sell books. If Mason only catered to the elite class of consumer who truly gets it, 2+2 would be a tiny company instead of the leader in the field - he needs to cater to a very wide audience.

Also if its not obvious I really respect that man's opinion, even if he is acting stubborn or pigheaded on a topic, he is generally correct if not at least partially correct - which is a rarity in life.

[SenecaJim]

To be fair, one down side to my 2+2 often-studied and worn-looking books: As I proudly survey my bookshelf I often think to myself "Damn, I should be a lot smarter than I actually am".

[*TT*]

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On second thought, I don't want to get into an argument and I don't really know what I'm talking about. I am not a publisher, nor do I have anything to do with that. I just wished the books lay flat better. That is all.

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Although I am supporting Mason's position in this thread, I also wish the books would lay flat. But as a publisher I know that if he books lay flat at their paper weight and size they will end up like Super System II, which has really poor book binding unfortunately. On a related note when we are discussing publishing in this thread we are really talking about the paper binding and printing processes, not design. I agree that other publishers books are more attractive, 2+2 is not know for their art department - they are know for their content.

[Mason Malmuth]

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I often think to myself "Damn, I should be a lot smarter than I actually am".

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Perhaps, but at leat you're honest.

Best wishes,
Mason