Drawing to second nut low

[theblitz]

These sort of hands seem to come up all the time and I never know what to do.
Full Tilt Poker
Limit Omaha Hi/Lo Ring game
Limit: $0.50/$1
8 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $25.65
UTG+1: $67.25
MP1: $41.45
MP2: $25.15
Hero: $39.40
Button: $7.50
SB: $32.65
BB: $26.55

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, Hero calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB checks.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5SB, 5 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets</font>, BB folds, UTG calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4.5BB, 4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">MP2 bets</font>, Hero ?

Unless I hit the magic 3 I do not have the nut low and that assumes that a low card comes at all.

[Buzz]

TheBlitz - I raise this flop bet.

Having not done that, play is more difficult. Having not done that, I guess I bite the bullet and raise on the third betting round, hoping to get one-on-one with MP2. Then it may get checked down, or maybe not.

I call before the flop on the first betting round, just as you did, but then I don't call on the second betting round. And that makes all the difference.

Buzz

[TxRedMan]

First of all, raise the flop. You have top pair which is likely good at the moment, a gutshot wheel draw, and a backdoor flush draw. Raising the flop gives you either information about your opponents hands, i.e., they'll three bet you when you're behind, or it gives you control of the hand the majority of the time.

As played, you now have six outs to the nuts on the turn, any non diamond 3 or J, so it's a clear call.

But I'd like for you to consider how much easier this turn card would be to play if it were checked to you, as it will be the majority of the time when you raise the flop.




-Tex

[theblitz]

[ QUOTE ]
First of all, raise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Good point.

[ QUOTE ]

As played, you now have six outs to the nuts on the turn, any non diamond 3 or J, so it's a clear call.

[/ QUOTE ]
I completely missed the nut high draw. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]
That's what happens when you are used to playing Hold'em

[ QUOTE ]

But I'd like for you to consider how much easier this turn card would be to play if it were checked to you, as it will be the majority of the time when you raise the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]
In this case, do I bet out or check it down for the free card?

[TxRedMan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
First of all, raise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Good point.

[ QUOTE ]

As played, you now have six outs to the nuts on the turn, any non diamond 3 or J, so it's a clear call.

[/ QUOTE ]
I completely missed the nut high draw. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]
That's what happens when you are used to playing Hold'em

[ QUOTE ]

But I'd like for you to consider how much easier this turn card would be to play if it were checked to you, as it will be the majority of the time when you raise the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]
In this case, do I bet out or check it down for the free card?

[/ QUOTE ]

on that particular turn card i would check. if it were the king of spades instead of the king of diamonds i would bet with the intention of checking the river unimproved.

The great thing about playing this hand this way is that you put yourself in a position to win the maximum and lose the minimum when you go to showdown, which, will be fairly often with top pair and the second nut low draw.

[chillrob]

TxRedMan, do you really think that a pair of aces with a ten kicker is the best hand on the flop? I can't imagine it isn't more likely that another player will have AK, AQ, AJ, or A5.

[TxRedMan]

[ QUOTE ]
TxRedMan, do you really think that a pair of aces with a ten kicker is the best hand on the flop? I can't imagine it isn't more likely that another player will have AK, AQ, AJ, or A5.

[/ QUOTE ]


For it to be "good" it only has to be "good" more than 33% of the time. And yes, I think that his high hand on the flop is the best current high hand more than 33% of the time, but that's the secondary reason for raising the flop. In fact, it's nothing more than a small incentive I used to convince the OP to raise this flop. I would reccomend raising with a variety of hands on this flop, some that hold no current high hand at all. But there's value in the AT, no doubt.

[Grandma_DOG]

[ QUOTE ]
TheBlitz - I raise this flop bet.

Having not done that, play is more difficult. Having not done that, I guess I bite the bullet and raise on the third betting round, hoping to get one-on-one with MP2. Then it may get checked down, or maybe not.

I call before the flop on the first betting round, just as you did, but then I don't call on the second betting round. And that makes all the difference.

Buzz

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this hand is a demarcation point between average player and good player.

Because 4 months ago, I'd muck the hand due to counterfeit and little for high save a pair.

And from my tutalage at Card Acadamy, I now know I can take a card off if I have top pair, as long as I have 2nd nut and there is not both a straight draw and a flush draw against me.

But raising? Buzz, could you give us mere mortals a blow by blow explaination of the reasoning. So that we could apply it to a our game.

Does this recommendation apply to all 2nd nut low draws where you have the top pair and no paired or 2 flush?

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
But raising? Buzz, could you give us mere mortals a blow by blow explaination of the reasoning. So that we could apply it to a our game.

[/ QUOTE ]Grandma_DOG - Tex expressed the idea better than I did. He wrote (see above):[ QUOTE ]
First of all, raise the flop. You have top pair which is likely good at the moment, a gutshot wheel draw, and a backdoor flush draw. Raising the flop gives you either information about your opponents hands, i.e., they'll three bet you when you're behind, or it gives you control of the hand the majority of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]There's even more that could be said, including something about 2nd nut low draw, in my humble opinion, but what Tex wrote is enough. Mainly you either get information or gain control.

[ QUOTE ]
Does this recommendation apply to all 2nd nut low draws where you have the top pair and no paired or 2 flush?

[/ QUOTE ]Off the top of my head, no. It's on a case by case basis. Notice that Hero has the button in this hand, that SB has bet the flop, and that two intervening opponents have simply limped.

Buzz

[XXsooted]

You want to raise to promote your high chances. Your raise might fold an AK or AQ that has no lo draw, since they wouldn't want to call 2 cold and call down on later streets just to win the high half. Your raise could also fold out some weak high draws that might have called the flop for one bet. In general, you want to raise to push opponents out when your holdings in both directions are good, but not the nuts.
As said above, getting checked to on the more expensive street has its obvious advantages.