Pocket Jacks shrivel up

cartman · #1 03-12-2006, 06:00 PM

SB is unknown. Button is 65/35 with attempt to steal = 57.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
3 folds, Button raises, SB calls, Hero 3-bets, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button folds, SB raises, Hero?

If you continue, what is your plan for the rest of the hand?

Thanks,
Cartman

redrooski24 · #2 03-12-2006, 06:03 PM

I used to call and raise a non spade turn for free sd and charge if he's c/ring with a draw. I fold to a turn spade and auto muck if he 3 bets it. I think I spew a lot though so this may not be optimal.

Azalin · #3 03-12-2006, 09:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
SB is unknown. Button is 65/35 with attempt to steal = 57.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
3 folds, Button raises, SB calls, Hero 3-bets, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button folds, SB raises, Hero?

If you continue, what is your plan for the rest of the hand?

Thanks,
Cartman

[/ QUOTE ]

Against an unknown i prefer to keep the initiative if possible. So i threebet the flop and bet the turn also (if a non spade hits). If he shows aggresion (capping the flop/check raising turn) then i fold (the FLOP when he caps or the turn when he check raises). An alternative is to raising a non spade turn although for free showdown/charging him. If you think that he cannot bet three streets with a missed flush draw (i tend to think that the average guy does not-the river mainly) then i call flop,turn and fold to river bet. The biggest difference between those two lines is metagame purposes so i decide according to my table image. I prefer the first if it looks like we are gonna get to more than normal SB vs BB fights (tight table).

The Funky Llama · #4 03-12-2006, 10:05 PM

I call down. I really don't like 3betting the flop or raising the turn against this player because:

a) if we're ahead a bet is going in on every street b/c he's almost always bluffing the river and never folding a pair to a single bet

b) A 65/35 with ATTSB of 57 definitely has the capability to 3bet a worse hand (flush draw, A7, etc.) on either the flop or the turn so you'll be folding the best hand sometimes.

c)if he's making a move with 33 you don't want him to fold

d) you will be folding what is usually a 2 outer if you fold on the turn.

I think excessive free showdown plays against players like this is one of the biggest mistakes the overaggro tags at 10/20 make.

moorobot · #5 03-13-2006, 12:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think excessive free showdown plays against players like this is one of the biggest mistakes the overaggro tags at 10/20 make.

[/ QUOTE ] Correct. Good against some players, bad against habitual bluffers and uber aggressive players (the distinction in practice is sometimes hard to make anyway). Oh yeah, donks love to donk bet. That's why it's called the donk bet.

Dane S · #6 03-13-2006, 12:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I call down. I really don't like 3betting the flop or raising the turn against this player because:

a) if we're ahead a bet is going in on every street b/c he's almost always bluffing the river and never folding a pair to a single bet

b) A 65/35 with ATTSB of 57 definitely has the capability to 3bet a worse hand (flush draw, A7, etc.) on either the flop or the turn so you'll be folding the best hand sometimes.

c)if he's making a move with 33 you don't want him to fold

d) you will be folding what is usually a 2 outer if you fold on the turn.

I think excessive free showdown plays against players like this is one of the biggest mistakes the overaggro tags at 10/20 make.

[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone listen to the Llama.

Surf · #7 03-13-2006, 12:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I call down. I really don't like 3betting the flop or raising the turn against this player because:

a) if we're ahead a bet is going in on every street b/c he's almost always bluffing the river and never folding a pair to a single bet

b) A 65/35 with ATTSB of 57 definitely has the capability to 3bet a worse hand (flush draw, A7, etc.) on either the flop or the turn so you'll be folding the best hand sometimes.

c)if he's making a move with 33 you don't want him to fold

d) you will be folding what is usually a 2 outer if you fold on the turn.

I think excessive free showdown plays against players like this is one of the biggest mistakes the overaggro tags at 10/20 make.

[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone listen to the Llama.

[/ QUOTE ]h

Indeed, the funky llama has excellent advice to offer when playing vs overaggro opponents.

In this specific instance, however, the flop aggressor is not the megalag, it's the unknown-cold-calling-sb. I fold this against an unknown.

Surf

The Funky Llama · #8 03-13-2006, 12:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
In this specific instance, however, the flop aggressor is not the megalag, it's the unknown-cold-calling-sb.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, you are right. I misread the HH. However, I would play the same against an unknown at that limit because I don't think the advantages of the free showdown raise against an unknown opponent outweigh the disadvantages I mentioned. I think folding is a mistake with the flushdraw.

Surf · #9 03-13-2006, 01:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In this specific instance, however, the flop aggressor is not the megalag, it's the unknown-cold-calling-sb.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, you are right. I misread the HH. However, I would play the same against an unknown at that limit because I don't think the advantages of the free showdown raise against an unknown opponent outweigh the disadvantages I mentioned. I think folding is a mistake with the flushdraw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Point taken. I'm going to put a post-it on my note that says "stop folding medium-strong made hands."

Also, welcome to the forum the new and improved, "The Funky Llama!"

Surf

redbeard · #10 03-13-2006, 04:06 AM

just to make sure i understand correctly the llama is advocating (and most others agree) that calling down with this (i assume as long as the button doesn't pull anything) is the proper play.