Interesting hand?

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]
You're kind of abusing simulator stats there. If you hold A2J and you are getting 2:1 to call on the flop, it's only worth it if calling will put you all in. The future bets in the hand mean that your *effective* pot odds will be very close to 1:1.

[/ QUOTE ]
I have no idea how all people who think this way think. (Which is part of my math-blindness.) We don't know what the future bets in the hand will be. This is always a call with the understanding you have to catch to bet or call. About this:

[ QUOTE ]
In order to call on 3rd, you need to feel that you have the best hand, or close to it, OR you are getting good enough *immediate* pot odds to warrant out-flopping your opponent, which happens about 1 in 5 times.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not according to what I've read. You have four possibilities on 4th (or any other street) you catch/he bricks, he catches/you brick, you both catch, you both brick.

So, you have a 25% chance of getting even (you catch, he bricks) a 75% chance of at least improving your own hand (you catch/he catches, you catch/he bricks, you both catch.) Even when you both brick, you might "catch" if that brick is a duplicate of a hole card and he bricks paint.

[ QUOTE ]
And with A2J it's even less likely because not only will you need a low card to outflop 678, he'll need to catch something J or higher.

[/ QUOTE ]I need an 8. Any 9 or higher is a brick for him.

[ QUOTE ]
678 is not a steal hand, it's perfectly legitimate hand to play, in later position, against either some mediocre up cards or players that you're better than.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, it sucks tidewater. Any other 8 has you. Any other 87 has you.

(You know, Rusty, if you and I didn't disagree so much there'd only be three posts a week on Razz around here. Keep 'em coming!)

[Davdob]

This is my dummy guide to this problem (because I am in fact a dummy):

I hate 678. I really hate it when three 2s and a 5 are showing.

[roggles]

[ QUOTE ]

I have no idea how all people who think this way think. (Which is part of my math-blindness.) We don't know what the future bets in the hand will be. This is always a call with the understanding you have to catch to bet or call.

[/ QUOTE ]
The hands being 2:1 is under the assumptions that the hands are shown down. Since you have a way inferior hand with A2J you need to catch really good (i.e. the person with 678 must also catch bad) to be able to continue to play the hand after 4th, with your own (bolded) strategy. You will have to fold 4th so often that you are not getting odds to call here as the bring-in with A2J.

Rusty put the same thing in a different way. You are 1:2 to win the hand with A2J. So you have pot odds to call and see the hand down if the completion of the bring-in is the final money you have to put into the hand. However, to see the hand down you usually have to call a bet on every street, and the bring-in + antes already in the pot makes a very small amount compared to calling down a bet on every street. So you actually don't have pot odds to make the call.

[ QUOTE ]

Not according to what I've read. You have four possibilities on 4th (or any other street) you catch/he bricks, he catches/you brick, you both catch, you both brick.

So, you have a 25% chance of getting even (you catch, he bricks) a 75% chance of at least improving your own hand (you catch/he catches, you catch/he bricks, you both catch.) Even when you both brick, you might "catch" if that brick is a duplicate of a hole card and he bricks paint.


[/ QUOTE ]
Your analysis assumes that you will want to keep calling with A2J vs 678 if you both catch good or bad, which you don't unless you want to put your money in bad. However, if you don't want to put your money in bad you won't put it in with A2J in the first place.

I don't know what to tell you, it is extremely intuitive that 678 is in a good spot against A2J, and I don't understand why you don't feel this way.

[Truthiness24]

[ QUOTE ]
It's the kind of hand new players need to see and read the responses to and a lot of them don't post. It's a hand it's good for micro players to read so we know sometimes much better players make the same mistakes we do so we don't feel so bad.

For the new-to-Razz player: this is not a three card 8. This is a steal hand and then you hope the bring-in doesn't have A2J.

[/ QUOTE ]

ftw

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know what to tell you, it is extremely intuitive that 678 is in a good spot against A2J, and I don't understand why you don't feel this way.

[/ QUOTE ] It's mathmatical that it's good, IMO. It's intuitive that it sucks. You win at the top, you lose at the bottom.

In 678 the top is full. You can't make it better unless you catch 432A. If you get a 4/3-2-A you are likely to get trapped betting the hand. The A2 is the best bottom anyone can have. The J is a discard. Any hand the J makes is going to beat you. Any other 8 and all the other hands.

The J is going to fold faster, take fewer chances, and get paid off better. The 678 is going to win more pots over the long haul and lose more money. The A2J is going to win fewer pots in the long run but against hands like 678 they will be significantly larger.

But it's just a matter of style, as I keep pointing out. You should play it the way it makes sense to you. You might need him to catch bad to continue, I do not.

[RustyBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]

The J is going to fold faster, take fewer chances, and get paid off better. The 678 is going to win more pots over the long haul and lose more money. The A2J is going to win fewer pots in the long run but against hands like 678 they will be significantly larger.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't disagree with this, exactly, but I don't care which one wins more pots, or larger pots. Which one makes more money?

And actually I think A2J's vulnerability extends beyond the fact that it's a crappy hand. The problem is, it's pretty much face up. Sure, depending on the player it might be 23J 24J 25J 34J 35J and even some 6s and 7s, but if he catches low cards my only question is, did he pair. If I have 678, and my 6 is up (I'd prefer that it is, but against a J up I'll take any of the cards up) then A2J is going to be guessing an awful lot as to the strength of my holding.

I know you keep saying "you win at the top and lose at the bottom" but it's just an aphorism. It isn't exactly distilled truth. If we could arrange it, I'd meet you at a heads up table and have them deal you XXJ where XX are 2 wheel cards, and have them give me 678 every time. That's not a statement of my estimation of my skill vs. yours, I'd take that wager with any razz player I consider within my league (sorry, SG, TT, etc need not apply)

[Andy B]

Actually, I like you with 678 vs. anyone with A2J. A lot.

[RustyBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, I like you with 678 vs. anyone with A2J. A lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well that's silly, I'm awful.

[2461Badugi]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, I like you with 678 vs. anyone with A2J. A lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well that's silly, I'm awful.

[/ QUOTE ]

You'd have to be really epically bad to lose in this spot HU. Maybe not forgetting-what-game-it-is bad, but at least not-knowing-when-a-draw-is-ahead-on-fifth bad.

[RustyBrooks]

I'm your huckleberry