Basic Flop Problem - Page 2

Nick C · #11 08-06-2007, 03:24 PM

I start thinking it could be a vulnerable made hand like pocket 4's. I wonder if it's simply a huge overbet bluff that's based on the reality that huge bets like this one don't get called very often. I look for draws and see that T9 is possible, but no really strong draw is.

And then I fold pretty much everything besides JJ and 8x. (With AA, I might get stubborn and call.) I suppose that theoretically this makes Villain's play profitable with any two cards, but I feel stupid when I pay off big straightforward overbets, so I'd want to have seen Villain make this play previously before I start calling without a very strong hand.

Edit: I don't think it helps our chances any, either, that our sketchy two-orbit read on Villain is that he's been passive preflop so far. It's not much to go on, I know, but the passive preflop first impression he's made could easily extend into his usual approach to postflop as well.

futuredoc85 · #12 08-06-2007, 03:26 PM

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So a villain who has shown virtually no aggression wakes up and plays back at you? It's an easy fold without AA, JJ or an 8 in your hand.

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agreed, vs a normal opponent AJ=AA here but vs this guy who doesnt raise pf KK/QQ/AA are well within his range for this move.

Grunch · #13 08-06-2007, 03:29 PM

Remember a basic truth about no-limit in spots like this: They are not bluffing nearly as often as you think.

I agree with Frank that the minimum hand to call with is AA; but it is pretty close. I hate calling with AA, but feel I must.

Pyromaniac · #14 08-06-2007, 03:47 PM

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It's a pretty easy fold with AA in your hand.

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FR maybe, but not 4 handed.

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Does it make a difference whether it's 4-handed with two out (seat empty or sitting out or whatever) from a 6-max table -- versus 4-handed from a FR table that's gotten short? Or not really?

4_2_it · #15 08-06-2007, 03:49 PM

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It's a pretty easy fold with AA in your hand.

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FR maybe, but not 4 handed.

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Does it make a difference whether it's 4-handed with two out (seat empty or sitting out or whatever) from a 6-max table -- versus 4-handed from a FR table that's gotten short? Or not really?

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4-handed is 4-handed no matter how many seats the table has. Now if the table was 9-handed and went to 4, and hero notices that villain has not adjusted, then hero should factor that in, but I do not sense that is the case here.

Pyromaniac · #16 08-06-2007, 04:04 PM

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Now if the table was 9-handed and went to 4, and hero notices that villain has not adjusted, then hero should factor that in

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yes, this is what I meant. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

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but I do not sense that is the case here.

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ok. I'm guessing, too, that most people who can't/won't adjust from 9-handed down to 4-handed will just leave the table before that happens.

PokrLikeItsProse · #17 08-06-2007, 05:42 PM

This is a really wierd spot for me to figure out for no-limit because in limit, I've found that the super-passive calling stations will sometimes step out of that shell and check-raise with something other than a super-strong hand only on a paired flop. I've met a few limit players where a paired flop is probably the only time they will ever bluff, as far as I can tell.

If hero is going to bet-fold AA, as some people seem inclined to do, should hero check the flop?

Josh. · #18 08-06-2007, 05:53 PM

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4-handed NL $0.25/$0.50.

Hero is the button and raises to $2 with ... something. SB folds and BB calls. In the couple orbits since you sat down BB seems to be playing lots of hands and so far he hasn't raised preflop. Pot is $4.25.

Flop is J88r. BB checks and Hero bets $2.50. Villain raises to $35 all-in and you have this covered. There is $41.75 in the pot and it will cost you $32.50 to call.

What is your thought process when you see this?

What do you need to call with?

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in my experience, ridiculous overbets from bad players are nearly always some mediocre one pair. it makes no sense at all, but that's just how it is. so here maybe J9 or 77. sometimes he will have an 8, but snap call with KJ+

sethypooh21 · #19 08-06-2007, 06:00 PM

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4-handed NL $0.25/$0.50.

Hero is the button and raises to $2 with ... something. SB folds and BB calls. In the couple orbits since you sat down BB seems to be playing lots of hands and so far he hasn't raised preflop. Pot is $4.25.

Flop is J88r. BB checks and Hero bets $2.50. Villain raises to $35 all-in and you have this covered. There is $41.75 in the pot and it will cost you $32.50 to call.

What is your thought process when you see this?

What do you need to call with?

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in my experience, ridiculous overbets from bad players are nearly always some mediocre one pair. it makes no sense at all, but that's just how it is. so here maybe J9 or 77. sometimes he will have an 8, but snap call with KJ+

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This was intuition as well...

DeathDonkey · #20 08-06-2007, 06:13 PM

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4-handed NL $0.25/$0.50.

Hero is the button and raises to $2 with ... something. SB folds and BB calls. In the couple orbits since you sat down BB seems to be playing lots of hands and so far he hasn't raised preflop. Pot is $4.25.

Flop is J88r. BB checks and Hero bets $2.50. Villain raises to $35 all-in and you have this covered. There is $41.75 in the pot and it will cost you $32.50 to call.

What is your thought process when you see this?

What do you need to call with?

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in my experience, ridiculous overbets from bad players are nearly always some mediocre one pair. it makes no sense at all, but that's just how it is. so here maybe J9 or 77. sometimes he will have an 8, but snap call with KJ+

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Totally agree before reading responses my first thought was "call quick with JT".

-DeathDonkey