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  #1  
Old 07-21-2007, 10:17 PM
Sp00n Sp00n is offline
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Default Razz: When Correct to Play to 3bets on 3rd

Here are some spots I'm not sure what the correct play is, maybe you can think of similar ones.

It is two small bets to you on 3rd from two wheels cards up who have raised and re-raised. What are you folding/calling/raising?

You raised 257, two wheel cards have raised you and each other respectively, it is now two small bets to you are you calling or folding?
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  #2  
Old 07-21-2007, 10:57 PM
2461Badugi 2461Badugi is offline
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Default Re: Razz: When Correct to Play to 3bets on 3rd

Ante structure and what you think of the players matters a lot, obviously. But for default type plays against reasonably competent opposition:

[ QUOTE ]

It is two small bets to you on 3rd from two wheels cards up who have raised and re-raised. What are you folding/calling/raising?

[/ QUOTE ]

I reraise live three wheels and live six draws with the six buried, and fold everything else unless dead cards are exceptionally favorable.

[ QUOTE ]

You raised 257, two wheel cards have raised you and each other respectively, it is now two small bets to you are you calling or folding?

[/ QUOTE ]

Presuming I actually completed with 257, I fold. If I raised it for some reason, I'm stuck in this pot until I'm worried about getting jammed or drawing dead.
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Old 07-22-2007, 08:51 AM
mustmuck mustmuck is offline
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Default Re: Razz: When Correct to Play to 3bets on 3rd

There's also one that seems to come up at lower stakes that I haven't looked into yet. You have a 7 or an 8, you complete and are raised by something that is almost certainly a better hand BUT there's a 9+ coming along for the ride. Do you 3-bet?

I have a lot of 3rd steet questions actually. How about how many of your outs have to be dead before you start thinking of open-folding a 7 in EP? (perhaps this is too much of a thread hi-jack)
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  #4  
Old 07-22-2007, 12:05 PM
Sp00n Sp00n is offline
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Default Re: Razz: When Correct to Play to 3bets on 3rd

1)

I think capping 3 card 5's is fairly standard. The only time I would not do this is if the dead cards are very unfavorable or I wanted to disguise the strength of my hand. What about capping with a 6 up and two wheel cards hidden? Against opponents aggressive on 3rd I think this is a reasonable play.

2)

Why are you folding 2461Badugi? Are you worried it will get jammed on 3rd where you will almost certainly have the worst of it? Your hand is strong and you still have a good amount of equity against wheel cards. With one small bet already bet, you are also now getting good odds with it only being two small bets to you. You are unfortunately never closing the action with your call which means you could have to put in another if it is capped.

A23 37.50%
345 33.87%
257 28.63%

Another spot:

If you were second last to act only to the bring-in and you have 257, another xx7 is behind you and someone w/ xxA attempts to steal and the player behind you raises the complete, do you over call or raise in this spot? Are you ever folding? What about if the player raising has xx6?
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  #5  
Old 07-22-2007, 12:39 PM
betgo betgo is offline
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Default Re: Razz: When Correct to Play to 3bets on 3rd

With 257, it depends on how live you cards are. If they are very live, you are probably ahead of wheel hands.
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Old 07-22-2007, 02:14 PM
WhiteWolf WhiteWolf is offline
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Default Re: Razz: When Correct to Play to 3bets on 3rd

[ QUOTE ]


2)

Why are you folding 2461Badugi? Are you worried it will get jammed on 3rd where you will almost certainly have the worst of it? Your hand is strong and you still have a good amount of equity against wheel cards. With one small bet already bet, you are also now getting good odds with it only being two small bets to you. You are unfortunately never closing the action with your call which means you could have to put in another if it is capped.

A23 37.50%
345 33.87%
257 28.63%



[/ QUOTE ]
In this situation (assuming nobody's hand is particularly live or dead) I'm more worried about the action on later streets than I am about the pot odds I'm currently getting. I'll be up against 2 better hands, and unless I hit the parley of me catching good while both my opponents catching bad, I'll be playing from behind for most of the hand. It seems to me this would be a reverse implied odds situation where we are better off just giving it up now.
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  #7  
Old 07-22-2007, 02:54 PM
*TT* *TT* is offline
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Default Re: Razz: When Correct to Play to 3bets on 3rd

[ QUOTE ]
It is two small bets to you on 3rd from two wheels cards up who have raised and re-raised. What are you folding/calling/raising?

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is your taking a "depends" question and trying to put it into a box. Position, live/dead cards, opponents and ante structure are all major factors in determing if your going to call a big bet on 3rd. But if you do decide to make the call you better bet an equity favorite with a hand like 235 when A's are live, and the dead cards are 223355T
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  #8  
Old 07-22-2007, 04:11 PM
Sp00n Sp00n is offline
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Default Re: Razz: When Correct to Play to 3bets on 3rd

That's a good point WhiteWolf, you can't think too much about direct implied or pot odds in a game like razz. I am still not sure if this warrants a fold or call though.

Obviously dead cards are important *TT*, and I will more frequently call a big bet on 3rd if the situation is favorable for it. In an 'average' situation we should be able to ignore dead cards. However, if there is a 3bet on 3rd we can almost guarantee that each of the raisers hole cards contain 4 cards we most likely require to make the best hand. Does this mean we should fold almost every time?
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  #9  
Old 07-22-2007, 04:34 PM
2461Badugi 2461Badugi is offline
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Default Re: Razz: When Correct to Play to 3bets on 3rd

[ QUOTE ]

Why are you folding 2461Badugi? Are you worried it will get jammed on 3rd where you will almost certainly have the worst of it? Your hand is strong and you still have a good amount of equity against wheel cards. With one small bet already bet, you are also now getting good odds with it only being two small bets to you. You are unfortunately never closing the action with your call which means you could have to put in another if it is capped.

A23 37.50%
345 33.87%
257 28.63%


[/ QUOTE ]

First, I would expect a cap 100% of the time if I call with a 7 up here. So I'm actually getting something like 10:3, which is not really very good odds to start with. As you show if we were calling all in we would take them, but there's not much of an overlay. It gets a little better if the 7 is down, but either way we're giving up a lot of our initial small bet in immediate equity anyway.

Second, we've made a big pot, so I won't be able to use any good early catches to pick it up early. I'm forced to peel, and if we all catch good I may be forced to allow myself to be jammed in with the third best hand. These kind of suck with regard to RIO.

Third, if someone's putting in bets drawing dead in this hand, it's almost always going to be me. That's huge.
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  #10  
Old 07-22-2007, 06:34 PM
*TT* *TT* is offline
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Default Re: Razz: When Correct to Play to 3bets on 3rd

[ QUOTE ]
Does this mean we should fold almost every time?

[/ QUOTE ]

You didn't read my post in it's entirety, you just took out the part about dead cards and focused on that. Go back to the part about Ante structures, if the pot is large and the ante/bring-in/completion structure is favorable it allows for some rather thin calls.
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