Americans give record $295 billion to charities in 2006

[vhawk01]

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What I'm talking about is taking Mass in a huge, beautifully furnished church and having my kids get Sunday school with all kinds of great toys and resources. This all counts as charity, some might call it tuition.

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Ya, but I don't think most people have that stuff in mind when they give to the church. Regardless of how the money is actually spent, the motivation is all that matters to me. I guess it's hard to say it isn't in the back of their mind that they might be getting some use out of it. But if I give $1,000 to some community of many people, it's hard to believe that's the best thing to do with my money, if just satisfying myself was my intention. Having nice churches might be a nice side effect, but I think the money given is mostly a result of generosity and very little by way of perceived utility. It just isn't a sound way to spend your money, so I don't think the claim that this is self-interest holds much water (unless you think all giving is ultimately self-interest, which like you say, is a dull argument).

I wouldn't call it tuition, cause you could get almost just as much out of the experience without paying. Tuition is required.

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Good point, tuition was most certainly the wrong word. I understand what you are saying, and I feel like a moron for getting involved in this discussion in the first place. I have no problem at all with the data, or with contributions given at church, or even finding out that atheists are in general a bunch of selfish pricks. It doesn't bother me, and wouldn't really surprise me. My sole point was really just a nit, trying to explain that tithing isn't exactly the same as giving to Santa in front of Target. I didn't do a very good job of arguing that point.

[ALawPoker]

heh, I respect your posts vhawk, and was actually thinking it didn't seem like your type of discussion. That doesn't mean it wasn't worth having though. I probably didn't explain myself all that well in my first post, so it was worth hashing out.

I think we are on the same page; tithing is a little different but mostly still a good thing.

I think the best argument in your favor is that people who give a lot to religions probably think God wants this, and even though it might not be the best use of their money in this life, it can still be argued to be self-interest.

But then, you could also say that perpetuating a cause that encourages people to give is a good thing even if the giver is just motivated by getting into heaven (sort of the opposite of the "good motivations/self-interest side effect" which is also at play here). Yadee yada. So I guess it just comes down to how you want to look at it.

My only real concern was addressing the guy that said "donations to religious cults shouldn't count." I'm not a religious person, but I hate when atheists throw cheap shots like that around without putting any thought into what they're actually saying. I have no problem admitting that I see religious giving as a little less altruistic though.

[jstnrgrs]

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some might call it tuition.

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I'm pretty sure no one would call that. At least not someone who was honest and familiar with how things work in the church.

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I'm pretty familiar with how things work in a parish and a Catholic school. Sample size is pretty small, admittedly. Not sure what you want me to say. People donate a lot to their church to make their church better. This isn't "Yeah, giving always makes the giver feel better" type of stuff, this is giving directly for your own benefit. People like going to church in nice, fancy, EXPENSIVE churches. Monseignors and priests like living in nice places and driving nice cars.

I don't know what percentage of the money given to churches ever leaves the church. It might be most of it. Surely, there are many good reasons people give money to their church. I'm not claiming otherwise. But to pretend like people do not get real, concrete, palpable returns on their donations at church is very dishonest.

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You missed my implication.

Tuition is not optional in order to receive the benefits of a college education.

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Ok. Its been my experience that 'donations' aren't really optional to receive the benefits of the fancy church, either. Maybe in theory, certainly not in practice. The Sister in charge of the school my girlfriend works at makes it abundantly clear to those who aren't charitable enough that they can find another church if they don't like giving to this one.

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That's interesting. My church is set up so that the Pastor, and other staff members don't know how much specific individuals donate. (At least that's what they say).