berry tenanbaum (spelling?) is coming out with a book?

[daveT]

I am not a fan of this guy. I don't believe he is a winning player, I don't believe he has a solid foundation for playing poker, and I don't believe that his book will be any good.

I have read a few of his articles and I wanted to throw up every time.

So two questions:

With our excellent (limited) selection fo limits books, is there a need for another one, especially when it is obv that it is for the sole purpose of taking more from the cash cow?

Does anyone like BT? Does anyone use him for coaching? What where your results like? I remember a thread in MSH where one guy was talking like BT was the bomb, but he is not longer in this forum that I remember.

[Gelford]

If you try using the search function, you will find this

[mucked4u]

Knowing barry personally and listening to his thoughts etc I can state strongly that the guy can play and has absolutely a good understanding of advanced concepts etc..
He has a very straightforward easy to grasp approach

[mosquito]

[ QUOTE ]
Knowing barry personally and listening to his thoughts etc I can state strongly that the guy can play and has absolutely a good understanding of advanced concepts etc..
He has a very straightforward easy to grasp approach

[/ QUOTE ]

Concur.

[PokerHorse]

In that thread, TT basically states that he doesnt think Barry is qualified to write about shorthanded,etc., games because he is mostly a full ring player. Barry is a seasoned proffessional player, who has very good knowledge of the game, yet TT would support an author such as Ed Miller,(I know hes well liked), who has very limited playing experience, yet has a good theoretical grasp of ,well lets say NO Limit, for example. Im not trying to put dowm Ed, but its so silly how some of the in house posters here Spin. I feal like I'm watching Fox news.
barry has miles and miles more experience than ED Miller, and is in fact a Pro player. Isnt that who we reaLLY WANT TO LEARN FROM?.Im sorry that two plus two didnt publish his book, but I'm sure there will be valuable info in it. Go to poker pages and read his 4-5 articles. If you think those are stupid, well, you're not going to win at this game. seeya and yes TT, I'm ragging on you because i see post after post of the most flippint, and arrogant posts coming from you.
Once again, you are wrong.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Horse:

I'm not a Tenebaum fan either. I do know him, though not very well, and have played a little against him. I also a while back attended a talk he gave and was surprised with how weak-tight the advice was including things like you need the best hand or best draw to play on the flop. But he certainly doesn't play that way, and that was at least a couple of years back (if not more).

However, it doesn't really matter. When his book comes out it will get read and then I'm sure there will be comments on it here. If it's good, that will come out. If it's not good, that will come out as well.

As for Ed Miller, the same could be said about him. If the books that he was involved with were poor, you would have heard about it here. However, there is a big difference. Miller's books (where he was either author or co-author) did come through us, and we have the expertise and dedication not to produce anything that's not top notch. Also, on the books where Miller was a co-author, and this includes the two no-limit books on the way with Matt Flynn and Sunny Mehta, I think everyone will agree that the other authors were certainly knowledgeable on the precise subject for which the particular book was written.

Going back to Tenebaum, I don't know much about his publisher, D & B Publishing, except that they also appear to be trying to put out good books (even though I don't think very much of the Slotboom, Mason book they produced on limit hold 'em), and I know Barry well enough to think that he would only produce a book that he worked hard on and isn't just trying to cash in on the poker craze with a quick book production like a number of other writers have.

Anyway, dispite my slightly negative comments, his book should be available soon and I look forward to any comments that those of you who read it may have.

Best wishes,
Mason

[ragazzobello]

[ QUOTE ]
I also a while back attended a talk he gave and was surprised with how weak-tight the advice was including things like you need the best hand or best draw to play on the flop. But he certainly doesn't play that way...

[/ QUOTE ]

I concur based on my limited experience playing 30/60 at the Bellagio with BT in my game. To me, his advice has been very contradictory over the years especially when viewed in light of how he plays himself.

[TimTimSalabim]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I also a while back attended a talk he gave and was surprised with how weak-tight the advice was including things like you need the best hand or best draw to play on the flop. But he certainly doesn't play that way...

[/ QUOTE ]

I concur based on my limited experience playing 30/60 at the Bellagio with BT in my game. To me, his advice has been very contradictory over the years especially when viewed in light of how he plays himself.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think what happens with a lot of great players who try to write books is that they have developed a good feel for where they are in a hand after years of experience, but this 'feel' can't be taught in a book. So they are forced to revert to giving cookie-cutter weak-tight advice to their readers, or they go the opposite direction and give broad advice on being hyper-aggressive, which is dangerous in the hands of the inexperienced reader. Instead of focusing on what *can* effectively be taught in books, which is largely theoretical and isn't necessarily learned through experience at the tables but nevertheless very useful if properly applied. Not too sound too much like a fanboy, but I think this is what generally separates the 2+2 books from the rest.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
In that thread, TT basically states that he doesnt think Barry is qualified to write about shorthanded,etc., games because he is mostly a full ring player. Barry is a seasoned professional player, who has very good knowledge of the game

[/ QUOTE ]

From what I knew Barry is mostly a live full ring player in the mid-limits, and that was partially from personal experience (I've played with him). GreyWolf who knows both me and Barry lets us all know that Barry has been playing a lot online now, and has moved on to HU and shorthanded games. GreyWolf already addressed this, and I accepted his correction as a fact - not a big deal.

[ QUOTE ]
yet TT would support an author such as Ed Miller,(I know hes well liked), who has very limited playing experience, yet has a good theoretical grasp of ,well lets say NO Limit, for example.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ed is probably the best qualified person in the poker book market today to take a complicated concept, and explain it in terms that are easy to comprehend. Ed's strengths are in his abilities as a writer, taking David Sklansky's concepts and explaining incredibly well. Ed's co-authors are the source of the theory and strategy, lets make sure that is understood before your really comparing apples to oranges.

[ QUOTE ]
Im not trying to put down Ed, but its so silly how some of the in house posters here Spin. I feal like I'm watching Fox news.

[/ QUOTE ]
I hate Fox news so thats a really bad analogy, its the new yellow journalism - its doing a disservice to the right wing. And for what its worth I'll be the first person to say if Ed or any other 2+2 author miscommunicates a concept.

[ QUOTE ]
barry has miles and miles more experience than ED Miller, and is in fact a Pro player. Isnt that who we reaLLY WANT TO LEARN FROM?.

[/ QUOTE ] I'm a pro player too. So are the many regulars in the Middle Stakes limit forums here, many of who are not Barry fans and others have taken coaching lessons from him and have benefited. From what I have seen with some exception those who have received coaching from Barry tend to be the weak-tight local types who didn't analyze post flop scenarios well. Barry seems to be very good at vocalizing concepts for these individuals allowing them to advance, but the side effect I have also witnessed is a false sense of security and game understanding from these players who have received his coaching (again - there are exceptions, such as Greywolf, but its my opinion the reason why he because so good is because of the hours he logged on 2+2's strat forums combined with his coaching sessions). Unfortunately for Barry Stoxtrader's recently released book on 2+2 seems to be the definitive title on the topic of shorthanded limit poker and will be an incredibly hard act to follow, and the upcoming NL book from Mat Flynn, Sunny Metha, and Ed Miller is so good that.... lets just say I'll let opinions on this forum be the judge. I think we will find that this book will viewed as highly as Small Stakes Hold'em was when it came out, and will probably outsell it as well.

[ QUOTE ]
Im sorry that two plus two didnt publish his book, but I'm sure there will be valuable info in it. Go to poker pages and read his 4-5 articles. If you think those are stupid, well, you're not going to win at this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody said his articles are stupid, but they are not eloquently written - Barry needs a good editor to help him communicate his thoughts. As a non-2+2 example I much prefer the writing of Byron Jacobs over Barry, he communicates concepts better. Luckily Byron is the owner of D&B and edits the books before they are released, I assume having Byron on board should help Barry's ability to communicate in writing.

[ QUOTE ]
seeya and yes TT, I'm ragging on you because i see post after post of the most flippint, and arrogant posts coming from you.
Once again, you are wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. your e-ego is out of wack, your entire post reads like you have an axe to grind against me personally. Look, Barry is a nice guy - everyone likes him, nobody made any personal attacks against him. I am friendly with the owner of D&B publishing who will put out Barry's book, I expressed my same concerns to him a few months ago when he first told me about his signing (he told me the shorthanded book was written in partnership with Barry, similar to the Slotboom Hold'em on the Come book). Like Mason (whose post is very similar to mine) I've always reserved the right to wait for the work to speak for itself, any discussion before they are released is just speculation and talk about his past body of work, and nothing more. I'll probably read it, but at this stage of my development I don't expect to learn anything new but if I do I'll be very happy!

[Mason Malmuth]

[ QUOTE ]
Like Mason (whose post is very similar to mine) I've always reserved the right to wait for the work to speak for itself, any discussion before they are released is just speculation and talk about his past body of work, and nothing more. I'll probably read it, but at this stage of my development I don't expect to learn anything new but if I do I'll be very happy!

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi TT:

I think this is the real problem here. A book on Advanced Limit Hold 'em Strategy if it's well done, should have virtually nothing new to offer. If it has a lot of new stuff, and it is addressing full ring games, I would be skeptical.

I do think that there is still some territory for higher limit short handed games (and heads-up play) that has not yet been well explored or could be explored some more, and that's why we're bringing out World Class High Stakes and Short-Handed Limit Hold ’em by By Ray Zee and David Fromm which should complement our just released book Winning in Tough Hold 'em Games; Short-Handed and High-Stakes Concepts and Theory for Limit Hold 'em by by Nick "Stoxtrader" Grudzien and Geoff "Zobags" Herzog. And perhaps the new offering from D&B Publishing on this topic (which Tanebaum is part of the author team) will be worthwhile as well.

But I can't help but think that another book on limit hold 'em will just not be worth it. I suspect that if this book was written ten or perhaps only five years ago it might have made a difference in the literature just like the different editions of Hold 'em Poker for Advanced Players and Small Stakes Hold 'em did, but I can't see it having much impact today, and my prediction is that the author, as well as D&B Publishing, will be disappointed in its sales

However, I've been wrong before and that can be the case here as well. So again when the text comes out we'll be looking forward to any reviews and comments that may appear here.

best wishes,
mason