question from schneids' latest CR vid, BB defense with 44

yourface · #1 10-02-2007, 11:57 PM

the video is schneids playing 2 tables of 15/30 on stars

around 1 minute in schneids has 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in the BB
folded to button who opens, SB call, schneids calls
flop is 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
SB checks, schneids checks, button bets

schneids says something about how he is going to c/r if the SB calls, but then the SB checkraises and something comes up on the other table so we never hear why

so, why?

thinking about it for a minute what I came up with was that button is probably going to take a free card on the turn when we're ahead, and giving a free card to a combined 12+ outs sucks.

doing some stoving I don't think that we have an equity edge here to push, but checkraising does make the hand easier to play. this is something I've noticed in a bunch of his vids, particularily heads up (more huhu vids plz schneids, preferably vs bad/mediocre LAGs at 5/10+). a lot of hands that I will play as bluff catchers (Ax Kx small pairs), schneids will play aggressively.

I'm hesitant to do this because of the risk of folding the best hand to a semibluff from an aggressive villain. does this kind of play require a read that we can comfortably fold to further action, or that calling down further action is more +ev than c/c?

jba · #2 10-03-2007, 12:15 AM

the thing about stove is it doesn't account for hands like K8 that never see the river. so stove thinks that hand has six outs twice when really he only has it once max. stove is awesome but falls really short sometimes.

yourface · #3 10-03-2007, 12:23 AM

yea I know what you mean, but even if we account for that (I tried adding the 2h to the board when looking at the flop play, and that doesn't even consider if villain picks up a draw on the turn) it's still super thin.

HOWMANY · #4 10-03-2007, 12:40 AM

When he mentioned that he was gonna c/r that hand I was like "wtf awful" but then when I thought about it more I was like "wow that's genius". I'm not really sure if I changed my mind just because I think Schneids is the god of lhe or if it is actually a great play but it definitely gave me something to think about.

wrt to the way he plays AX/KX/small pair aggressively on certain board textures, I find when I am playing well/running well I play them aggressively while if I am losing and not playing my best I will generally find a way to show them down cheaply or at least get far enough into the hand that I'm convinced I am beaten. One of the big problems is that if you c/c flop and turn in almost any situation after putting in no aggression at any point it is pretty obvious your hand sucks whale [censored] and you're going to c/c down because any draw or reasonable made hand you would put in more action earlier. There are ways to balance this like c/c flops more with good hands and draws to c/r turn but against most people I think it's better to just do your stuff on the flop.

londomollari · #5 10-03-2007, 01:19 PM

Didn't he explain the reasoning when he discussed the k4o live hand?

HOWMANY · #6 10-03-2007, 01:32 PM

Yeah similar explanation but in this spot he will actually have the best hand a lot.

Absolution · #7 10-03-2007, 02:22 PM

I read it as, when the SB calls, your check raise shows more strength and you're less likely to be messed with, while still being ahead of the SB in most cases. If the button has missed, he's not going to be messing around with 2 of you. He might peel the flop and fold the turn so you also prevent him from seeing 2 cards as you said. You get position on the drawing player and prevent the button from seeing the river where he probably should. You put that together with the meta stuff that MANY pointed out and it seems like a decent play that I basically never make. If you just play passively you're easy to read and have to avoid the majority of the deck twice. If you play it aggressively you're more difficult to read and might even win without a showdown. That also makes your hand easier to play since you've set up a situation where you can probably trust the information you're going to get later in the hand.

On the other hand, if the SB folds, check raising isn't likely to win you the pot any more than just calling down on this board. You will end up on the river in a reverse implied odds situation often. However, if you check-raise you can also represent a lot of scare cards on the turn. Check raising in either case seems like a good option to me.

Schneids · #8 10-03-2007, 02:50 PM

What a lot of people have said are the essential reasons why. Also to add: Say the raiser bets, and the SB calls and you call. What do you like doing on the turn if a relatively safe card comes? Checking? Leading into the raiser? Firstly, checking sucks because a lot of the time the PFR may very well check behind if he has no pair, and likewise, he may bet with no pair, so now you're really in a quandary when the action gets back to you. Leading the turn sucks if the PFR is at all good because your pf/flop/turn line looks exactly like this type of hand (unless you start playing flopped top pair this way too) so he should be able to raise you with a LOT of hands, both either as a bluff or for value.

So in part through process of elimination, if the hand is going to be continued, there's a lot of merit to checkraising the flop (not to mention meta game benefits of having this flop checkraise mean more than just top pair or flush draw or that type of thing). If the SB is the only turn caller you obviously check the river and give up (and make note if he did flop a pair and only check called) since it's likely he either has no pair and is folding, or has passively played a pair the whole way.

Tryptamean · #9 10-03-2007, 02:55 PM

man, this is good stuff that I haven't really considered in these spots. I haven't gotten a CR account yet because they dont seem to have much limit stuff, but it could be worth it anyway...

Absolution · #10 10-03-2007, 03:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
man, this is good stuff that I haven't really considered in these spots. I haven't gotten a CR account yet because they dont seem to have much limit stuff, but it could be worth it anyway...

[/ QUOTE ]

You can buy the videos individually, which is what I have done.