Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

[[Phill]]

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Uh Silly Sal. hello Silly Sal. Send us some evidence please. Should be on your computer.

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Hyperthetical.

I call you a botter and provide no evidence.

Prove you arent one to me now.

And, go...

Just what do you expect Sal to prove? Is there a folder somewhere in the C: titled "Evidence"?

She doesnt use PT - something which meshed with the fact that at the start of the thread she didnt know who she recently took for a large sum - she doesnt use any AHK scripts apparently, so how do you prove innocence?

If i was accused tomorrow, i have little or no evidence. The best i can do is my housemate is a poker player who has watched me play countless times - but his word could only be believed so far.

When given no evidence there is NOTHING you can do. Hell, Johnny Cochrane probably wouldnt have got OJ off if OJ didnt put on the glove.

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Two things dont sit right with me:

1, Sites MUST communicate with people when they lock accounts. Im sorry, but no communication is NOT good enough.
2, Convicted people should have the right to defend themselves against their accusors. You dont need to tell them everything - but some details about what was decided is required.

Essentially you need to ask this - does Stars lock less accounts which is why there are less "ZOMG Stars stole my monies" posts, or is it because the accused dont have to come here to find out why their accounts are locked? Honestly, i dont know, but there are reasons i prefer playing at Stars over FTP and that truly is one of them. Perception is truth.

[rakemeplz]

Ok, in preface I'd like to say I'm unconvinced of Sal's innoncence or guilt.

"• $47K is a big amount for an individual. It is peanuts to a major site like FTP and the only conclusion I can draw is that they have serious issues surrounding sillysal’s account."


Don't mean to pick on this one post, but I've seen this mentioned a few times. Ummm, I think this is pretty specious reasoning. It's not like fulltilt is doing this only for the 47k. They obviously have other reasons for doing this even though they are not 100% sure of her guilt, which I'm not going to list, but I'm sure everyone can think some up.

[Johny Poker]

It seems to me Sillysal should ask FT for ALL of her hand histories. How could they object to mere hand histories being released? There are apparently many or at least several so called experts that can analyze these hand histories. How about it FT?

[futuredoc85]

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I think it it strange that I'm the only person siding with Full Tilt here.

Of course I wish they would post why this has happened, but I feel like it is very unlikely that they're "stealing" money from sillysal.

This thread definitely had me laughing at all the mini-lawyers.

Also, FTPdoug posted that they replied to all of the emails within 24 hours and just didn't have any new information for sillysal. How is that not good enough of an explanation?

And to sillysal:

Sorry if any of this sounded insensitive. I have nothing against you and hope you didn't wrongfully lose your $$.

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luke, i dont think anyone is saying she is def. innocent, just that she deserves to hear the evidence against her if they are gonna take $50k from her.

[primetime32]

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I think it it strange that I'm the only person siding with Full Tilt here.

Of course I wish they would post why this has happened, but I feel like it is very unlikely that they're "stealing" money from sillysal.

This thread definitely had me laughing at all the mini-lawyers.

Also, FTPdoug posted that they replied to all of the emails within 24 hours and just didn't have any new information for sillysal. How is that not good enough of an explanation?

And to sillysal:

Sorry if any of this sounded insensitive. I have nothing against you and hope you didn't wrongfully lose your $$.

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luke, i dont think anyone is saying she is def. innocent, just that she deserves to hear the evidence against her if they are gonna take $50k from her.

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i agree . I understand that FTP wants to keep some of its methods a secret from future cheaters, but at least some evidence needs to be presented to the victim. Its great that they are sharing the information they received with a mod here, but if OP was not a member of a forum how would they ever find out if they were cheated by FTP?

On the opposite side, there is definitely something missing from this story and OP will have alot of explaining to do once the evidence gets sorted out.

[[Phill]]

Correct me if im wrong, but the hand histories will prove exactly nothing if the case is that she has(nt) been botting.

I mean, its not like in the hand hist the name pokergirl z suddenly changes to pokergirl's bot.

I would imagine the key data is found in her processes list and the timing of actions - something i doubt the site can or will release and i cant really blame them.

I guess my opinions fall between the cracks in the grey area between wanting accused people to defend themselves and the sites to not show every method they use to combat botting etc. There has to be something more than "yeah, we know you have used these AI programs, but, like no we arent telling you what programs or how we found out, just trust us that we caught you".

What annoys me most is there is no true third party you can go to - the Kanawake Gaming Commission would be the ones, but they are a total joke.

I dont know if THIS is the case to hang your hat on, but people have been found to be innocent after a false positive flag was thrown up - which makes me question if it could ever happen to me. I dont use AHK or datamine, so im probably ok for the most part, but the average 2+2er is way more at risk than the average fish due to using such programs (along with PT, HUDs etc which might show up as anomolies).

I think the argument that you should get back what you have deposited on a site along with a percent of the profit they cannot prove to have been earnt illegally is sound imo if they cannot give you full details of how you were caught and what you did. But then i see the counter argument its the same as arresting bank robbers, taking their swag but letting them keep the sawn off shotties and ski masks.

[Johny Poker]

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Correct me if im wrong, but the hand histories will prove exactly nothing if the case is that she has(nt) been botting.

I mean, its not like in the hand hist the name pokergirl z suddenly changes to pokergirl's bot.

I would imagine the key data is found in her processes list and the timing of actions - something i doubt the site can or will release and i cant really blame them.

[/ QUOTE ]

In their letter to pokergirl z, FT said "We can tell you that during the course of the investigation we reviewed and assessed detailed hand histories and playing patterns to come to our final decision." So obviously FT feels there was evidence in the hand histories. And they should show us if she played 52 hours straight without a break, did she always fold certain hands, etc. Others please comment on this.

[jman220]

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I was being sarcastic that you guys thought that because sillysal didn't reply "fast enough" that she was more likely to be guilty.

Obviously, it is self-evident that the 3 hour delay isn't a bad reflection on FTP; Similarly, it is self-evident that the 1 (2?) hour delay by Sillysal is not a bad reflection on Sillysal.

While the IG forum is serious business, there are other things in the world that can hold someone's attention.

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While she has now posted it, my main concern was that she continued posting several times all of which were well after several people posted (and I pm'd her) asking her to post the damned email, and 3 hours later, no email, but several more posts proclaiming her innocence. In any event, she has now posted the email and this is a moot point. This was not handled well by Full Tilt Poker regardless of whether or not she is guilty because there is no way that she is 100 percent definitely guilty, no matter how much evidence FTP has, unless they've managed to get a video camera of a robot sitting at her computer.

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Jman, you were one of the original posters of the absolute cheating scam if not the original. Please investigate the non stop bot accusation-frozen money Ftp scam. Then post your results in NVG or BBV cause alot of FTP players do not visit this section.

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What is there to investigate? This isn't like the absolute situation where we had mountains of statistical evidence that there was cheating going on and were stonewalled by AP for over a month. In this case, Full Tilt holds all the cards, they're the only ones who have the hand histories (the OP says she doesn't keep them or user pokertracker), and FT is not releasing them. FT deserves to be condemned for this for sure, but what are any of us supposed to do? We completely exposed Absolute poker as cheats at the highest levels, it got reported in the mainstream press, ESPN, the New York Times, AND THEIR PLAYER NUMBERS DIDN'T EVEN DROP. If all the stupid fish want to keep playing at sites like Absolute and Full Tilt when they pull [censored] like this, and all the greedy 2+2'ers want to stay there as well because the odds of them being the victim of cheating are still relatively low, there's not much I nor anyone else can do about it, and you all deserve what you get (I'm sorry to be harsh here but its true). The only way to make a site listen is to talk with your wallets, by not playing there anymore, and poker players are too stupid and too greedy and too addicted to online gambling to think of anything other than their next session. We've known FT treats its players like this for years, these threads are not new, but people still keep playing there. I, personally, do not play on any site other than pokerstars, nor would I ever. Unfortunately, I am in the extreme minority, and like I said, all you people who keep playing at these shady, unregulated, (and in some cases confirmed cheating) sites deserve what you get. If I sound angry its because I am, because a lot of people put a lot of work into exposing Absolute Poker, and it basically accomplished nothing.

[getterdone36]

^^^^ excellent point

[dying2win]

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I was being sarcastic that you guys thought that because sillysal didn't reply "fast enough" that she was more likely to be guilty.

Obviously, it is self-evident that the 3 hour delay isn't a bad reflection on FTP; Similarly, it is self-evident that the 1 (2?) hour delay by Sillysal is not a bad reflection on Sillysal.

While the IG forum is serious business, there are other things in the world that can hold someone's attention.

[/ QUOTE ]

While she has now posted it, my main concern was that she continued posting several times all of which were well after several people posted (and I pm'd her) asking her to post the damned email, and 3 hours later, no email, but several more posts proclaiming her innocence. In any event, she has now posted the email and this is a moot point. This was not handled well by Full Tilt Poker regardless of whether or not she is guilty because there is no way that she is 100 percent definitely guilty, no matter how much evidence FTP has, unless they've managed to get a video camera of a robot sitting at her computer.

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Jman, you were one of the original posters of the absolute cheating scam if not the original. Please investigate the non stop bot accusation-frozen money Ftp scam. Then post your results in NVG or BBV cause alot of FTP players do not visit this section.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is there to investigate? This isn't like the absolute situation where we had mountains of statistical evidence that there was cheating going on and were stonewalled by AP for over a month. In this case, Full Tilt holds all the cards, they're the only ones who have the hand histories (the OP says she doesn't keep them or user pokertracker), and FT is not releasing them. FT deserves to be condemned for this for sure, but what are any of us supposed to do? We completely exposed Absolute poker as cheats at the highest levels, it got reported in the mainstream press, ESPN, the New York Times, AND THEIR PLAYER NUMBERS DIDN'T EVEN DROP. If all the stupid fish want to keep playing at sites like Absolute and Full Tilt when they pull [censored] like this, and all the greedy 2+2'ers want to stay there as well because the odds of them being the victim of cheating are still relatively low, there's not much I nor anyone else can do about it, and you all deserve what you get (I'm sorry to be harsh here but its true). The only way to make a site listen is to talk with your wallets, by not playing there anymore, and poker players are too stupid and too greedy and too addicted to online gambling to think of anything other than their next session. We've known FT treats its players like this for years, these threads are not new, but people still keep playing there. I, personally, do not play on any site other than pokerstars, nor would I ever. Unfortunately, I am in the extreme minority, and like I said, all you people who keep playing at these shady, unregulated, (and in some cases confirmed cheating) sites deserve what you get. If I sound angry its because I am, because a lot of people put a lot of work into exposing Absolute Poker, and it basically accomplished nothing.

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the man speaks the truth.