21/17/3.0/22

[Tickner]

VPIP 21%
PFR 17%
AF 3.0
WTSD 22%

In iStrong's well post he claims this to be the type of player that is playing close to an unexploitable game.

[ QUOTE ]
Btw, I believe unexploitable play to be around 21/17/3.0 wtsd 22. Anything away from this can be exploited in one way or another.

[/ QUOTE ]

He proceeds to say that its important to understand why this is "unexploitable" and that its important to know how to play vs it and how to adjust vs people who deviate from this strategy.

[ QUOTE ]
I agree, unexploitable strategies are not necessarily +EV (edit: maximally +EV i mean). And unless you're playing a bunch of people who are playing unexploitable strategy it's definitly not the most +EV. It may be possible that there are several unexploitable strategy and not just one. Regardless, it's not really relevant. All I was trying to say is when you see a 30/25/8 you should immediately think that there is a way to exploit this guy and figure out how (things like 3-betting him more IP, calling more IP, slowplaying more post flop etc)

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this can be a pretty good discussion that we should continue here instead of derailing his well.


Some interesting questions that arise from this:

1. Is there an unexploitable strategy?

2. If so, is it optimal (meaning maximum EV)?

3. How should we play vs this type of player?

4. Anyone who deviates from this preflop style needs to be adjusted to properly, and played against slightly differently. Correct?

5. If so, how does hand change vs a player whom is

a) 10/5/2.0
b) 50/30/4.5
c) 64/10/0.5
d) 28/22/3
e) 19/16/3.5
f) 100/0/0.5
g) 100/90/7
h) 6/0/2
i) 12/10/5
j) 30/20/3.4

I dont mean to post these questions and have everyone quote them and answer each one, but more-so to think about each of the questions and give general thoughts on the subject.

I'll post my thoughts later.

[ikestoys]

first thought:
lol i exploit these players all the time

[Tickner]

[ QUOTE ]
first thought:
lol i exploit these players all the time

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too, but I want to get a discussion going on how we exploit them with respect to the "unexploitable" stats above (which I don't exactly agree with fwiw)?

[ikestoys]

1.) No, being able to play well postflop isn't necessarily #s
2.) Optimal preflop numbers vary from table to table, against a bunch of nits you want to be looser, against a bunch of donkeys you want to be tighter
3.) Too general of a question really, each player like this has bad tendencies
4.) Well duh you have to adjust to diff types of players
5.)
a. SuperLag
b. Nit
c. Lag in pos
d. TAG/LAG, depends on relative position
e. Lag
f. slag is pos
g. Nit
h. SuperLag
i. Lag
j. Nittish tag

[cbloom]

1. Yes, it is the Game Theoretic Optimal Strategy. It is currently unknown for poker.

2. It is the optimal strategy vs. other people who are playing optimally. It is not optimal vs. players who make mistakes.

3. The best you can possibly do vs. the GTOS is to also play the GTOS, by definition.

4. GTOS is a lot more than preflop. Anyone who is playing differently than the GTOS in any way has a "leak" which you can adjust to exploit.



It is interesting to think about because the GTOS is a very randomized balanced strategy. Basically any time someone is not randomizing or balanced enough they have a leak which you can exploit if you can adjust in the right way.

[wrkingtobegreat]

A strategy can be "unexploitable" but in poker it is better to exploit others weaknesses, not focus your energy being unexploitable yourself. Exploiting opponents is where the money comes from. Like Sklansky says in NLHTAP, in math land there probably is a perfect strategy, but the people who would use it wouldn't be the biggest winners.

[KLJ]

i think this thread is almost as taboo as "how do I play against (insert reg here)", but that's just me. wayyy too much personal information IMO.

i won't be posting strategy in this thread.

[orange]

dont really get it...just because PF numbers are nice doesnt mean that they arent horrible postflop. there was a thread in hsnl a bit back on 'unexploitable strategy' and the consensus was there was none (i think).

[KLJ]

still there are certain ways to procede postflop against certain preflop hand ranges.

[cbloom]

[ QUOTE ]
dont really get it...just because PF numbers are nice doesnt mean that they arent horrible postflop. there was a thread in hsnl a bit back on 'unexploitable strategy' and the consensus was there was none (i think).

[/ QUOTE ]

There definitely is one and IMHO the way aba & PA play is getting pretty close. Lots of bluffing & value shoving, very mixed up ranges, you're unexploitable to set mining from Shania, etc.