A lesson on Maximum Value - Page 2

orange · #11 06-04-2007, 05:14 PM

AK calls a flop cr KQ does, something like JT might peel.

the nice thing about c/ring is your line looks so FOS- you have to be holding pretty much 77 exactly since you would typically 3ball QQ/KK pf (i would assume). if your opponents are smart, thats a pretty tough/small range to be considering.

johnnyrocket · #12 06-04-2007, 05:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i don't get why you are slowplaying here, a lot of hands UTG raise pf and leads out pays you

[/ QUOTE ]

i completely agree, i donk here all day long, this is such a great board to hit a set on and stack someone, i want to donk and let him push back if he has a hand

if he doesnt he is folding the turn anyhow, change this post to extracting less value than u should have

ImsaKidd · #13 06-04-2007, 05:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
AK calls a flop cr KQ does, something like JT might peel.

the nice thing about c/ring is your line looks so FOS- you have to be holding pretty much 77 exactly since you would typically 3ball QQ/KK pf (i would assume). if your opponents are smart, thats a pretty tough/small range to be considering.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is a CR really a good line to take when FOS here?

Isura · #14 06-04-2007, 06:02 PM

AJ, AT, JT, KQ, KJ, KT will all peel. It is very hard for us to have a good hand in this spot, hence we should c/r.

donkmagic · #15 06-04-2007, 06:06 PM

checkraising this board is only good if you do it with air. if opponents decent and knows you dont get out of line / play tricky, and judging from some of your replies in this thread im like 100% certain thats the case to both cases, he should insta fold to your check raise with anything less than kq.

bilbo-san · #16 06-04-2007, 06:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What hands call a c/r on the flop? If I have a c/r on the flop I am representing KQ at the minimum (I falt called in the SB, I dont ever have AK here).

Since they are decent players, a c/r doesn't extract max value. Sure I let some draws in if the BB has a TJ type hand, but on avg I think its better than folding out everything but KK/QQ/AK (and AK will be folded by winning players a majority of the time IMO - it may get a flop call but probably not much more than that).

Obv if PFR was an aggro drooler Id c/r flop, but good players just arent gonna stack off with AK here, and if he has KQ he only has 4 outs and we are both stacking anyway.

Keik you have a good point about the turn donk though.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with this line is the part where you really think decent regs fold AK or better here. Cmon.

Post this hand from UTG's perspective, where the SB c/rs and tell me how many 2+2 regs will tell you to fold [censored] AK or AA here. I bet tons of them tell you to shove.

If you really think he's that weak than why aren't you c/ring with a [censored] ton of hands here?

The fact of the matter is that he has a very good hand or air here, because he's betting into 2 people, or he's decided that repping a K with 99 is better than using it as a bluff-catcher vs. 2 ppl.

Lastly, I think it's pretty unprofitable to call from the SB here unless you get stacks in whenever you flop 777.

Grunch · #17 06-04-2007, 06:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
AJ, AT, JT, KQ, KJ, KT will all peel. It is very hard for us to have a good hand in this spot, hence we should c/r.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isura, if the board was K-7-2 are you still cr?

Grunch · #18 06-04-2007, 06:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Lastly, I think it's pretty unprofitable to call from the SB here unless you get stacks in whenever you flop 777.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree, I think we have the implied odds here. Plus 77 isn't hard to play OOP.

Tickner · #19 06-04-2007, 06:28 PM

Okay, some good points.

Let me show you what AK looks like from his perspective...

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $1/$2 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

SB: $208.80
BB: $297.50
Hero (UTG): $230.70
CO: $200.00
BTN: $195.00

Reads: Both players in this hand are decent regs and probably slight winners.

Preflop: Hero is dealt A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 Players)
Hero raises to $8.00, 2 folds, UTG calls $7.00, BB calls $6.00

Flop: ($24) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 Players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $15.00, SB calls $15.00, BB folds

Turn: ($54) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB bets $33.00, Hero calls $33.00

River: ($120) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB bets $70.00

[/ QUOTE ]

Im pretty sure most people would advocate at LEAST a call down here. Maybe a river fold but my bet sizing makes it tough. Raising is probably not the best play without a good readt. Still, having him call down here nets us a pretty good EV.

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $1/$2 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

SB: $208.80
BB: $297.50
Hero (UTG): $230.70
CO: $200.00
BTN: $195.00

Reads: Both players in this hand are decent regs and probably slight winners.

Preflop: Hero is dealt A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 Players)
Hero raises to $8.00, 2 folds, UTG calls $7.00, BB calls $6.00

Flop: ($24) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 Players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $15.00, SB raises to $48, BB folds, Hero?

[/ QUOTE ]

Now, seriously, a shove here is just spew vs a good player. Unless you have a very specific read, ie "Hes been bluff c/ring me frequently with air", "loves to play top pair 5th kicker for stacks", etc.

I dunno, I might call here and fold to a river shove because UTGs hand looks exactly like a PP preflop, and his flop action have basically told us he has exactly 77 or QK. Nothing else makes sense. AK 3bets pre, ive seen bad tags 3bet KQ here as well (although I certainly dont - I still may call with it some of the time).

Tickner · #20 06-04-2007, 06:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lastly, I think it's pretty unprofitable to call from the SB here unless you get stacks in whenever you flop 777.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree, I think we have the implied odds here. Plus 77 isn't hard to play OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. He doesnt have to stack off 100%. im kinda lazy right now so I dont want to do the math for it, but its quite a bit lower than 100%. Thats JUST from stack odds, not including the times we hit a set, c/r, and he folds (we gain a bit there) or the times we donk, or c/r and we get to extract another bet on the turn but he folds on the river (or whatever action - point is we can gain value without stacking him).

2. We can snap off flop cbets on boards like Q25r and have it checked down and gain not only our PF action but also the flop cbet, etc. In other words yes, we are playing for sets, but we also win at shwodwon without a set some % of the time.

3. BB is now getting excellent pot odds to call (almost 20-6 or about 3-1). And having him in the pot helps us earn a stack when we do in fact flop a set.